Suggestions to improve hidden nationality units

[Seont]

I was wondering if there were any plans to improve hidden nationality units. As it stands right now, they lack flavor, and aren't very effective. You can use them to scout rival territory, and harass an ally or enemy you are not at war with, but you can also be expected to be attacked by anything, and often everything, nerby. You cannot pillage improvements, you cannot capture or raise cities. for pirates, this hardly seems like piratical behavior to me.

Here are a few suggestions i have for them.

1)allow hidden nationality ships a chance to turn any vessel they defeat into a pirate(like civ 3 i believe) or more preferably, capture it and make it a hidden nationality unit(so a frigate becomes a hidden nationality frigate, not a pirate) for this to work, you'd have to make the chance fairly low, then give the lunan boarding parties a much much bigger chance to justify their existance. or else, instead of giving control of the new unit to the owning nation, have it become a barbarian, This would also emphasize the danger of using pirates, as you could very quickly flood your own seas with pirates not under your control.
There are, however some problems that would need to be addressed with this idea, the barbarian you just created could immediately kill your pirate. And pirates would be useless against stopping barbarians unless they declared their nationality(which is actually realistic, in my oppinion)

2) for any ship destroyed by a hidden nationality ship, grant a small sum of gold to the nation which owned the pirate, based on the type of ship, to symbolize captured cargo, or the sale price of the captured ship, or ransoms for the captain and crew(if ransoms for the crew are used, extra gold for any promotions would be a nice touch), etc. This could also be applied to land units.
if it were considered a ransom, barbarians could not be expected to pay, and therefore, if used with 1) listed above, you would get money when you first took the ship from another nation, but when you tried to cheat and take the barbarian you created several times, you'd get nothing.
Also, if its a ransom, the unit should be stripped of all promotions.

3)allow hidden nationality units to pillage improvements, but reduce the amount of gold you get for the pillage, after all, the mercenaries will keep most for themselves.

4)if a hidden nationality unit, like a mercenary, kills all the defenders of a city, allow the unit to occupy it. while occupied, the city remains loyal, etc, to its owning empire, but will not generate taxes or science, instead a small chunk of the gold the city would normally generate is given to the empire which owns the mercenary. The merc should get reduced, or no defensive bonuses, and maybe take per turn damage from resisting populations.

5) allow hidden Nat units(land or sea) within a city radius, to have a chance of siezing the gold of any and all trade routes that city has, with a portion going to the owner of the h-nat unit.

6) instead of allowing hidden nationality units to pillage tiles, allow them to sieze the income of any tiles worked in their radius, with a portion going to the owner of the h-nat. Converting food and production from the tile to an appropriate amount of gold as well.

Just a few suggestions, comments appreciated.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I like these, but hidden nationality should also have some risks. Perhaps they should add a very slight chance that the civilization that a hidden nationality unit should figure out who sent them. This could lead you to declare war accidentally. Perhaps a Sun sphere spell greatly increases the chance that the units owner will be discovered.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

#2 is in right now as a special feature of the Lanun. #1 proabably won't be added because it is too similar to the Lanun boarding party special effect, like you pointed out.
Otherwise, hidden nationality improvements are slated to come in in Shadow phase, possibly for everyone, possibly for Svartalfar only.

 

[Seont]

I like these, but hidden nationality should also have some risks. Perhaps they should add a very slight chance that the civilization that a hidden nationality unit should figure out who sent them. This could lead you to declare war accidentally. Perhaps a Sun sphere spell greatly increases the chance that the units owner will be discovered.

i agree, the more useful they become the more of a drawback is needed for using them. I'm not found of a discovering nationality chance, but my other idea, which i like only slightly more, is a general relations penalty. like using death magic it would be -2 "you use mercenaries/pirates/hidden nationality units" or maybe even -6 "we suspect you used mercs/pirates/h-nats against us".

#2 is in right now as a special feature of the Lanun. #1 proabably won't be added because it is too similar to the Lanun boarding party special effect, like you pointed out.
Otherwise, hidden nationality improvements are slated to come in in Shadow phase, possibly for everyone, possibly for Svartalfar only.

really? #2 is in, i don't have .21(or a computer that can play civ4 at the moment) so i must rely on the boards and the wiki, and i don't see it mentioned. Thats cool though, i'll check it out when i get up and running again.

its good to know improvements are planned, even if you very cruelly won't even hint at what they are. But i must say, i have always been opposed to arbitrary rules. Things like only the lunan can use boarding parties, is something that really annoys me, as it isn't rational. Give them a bonus, fine, but arbitrarily denying abilities to other races, that are really basic abilities, doesn't sit well with me. Only the lunan know how to use a grappling hook to board an enemy ship? No one ever thought to figure out how they do it?
That, and the fact that i would like to see pirates contribute to the barbarian problem, as stated in the second half of #1, and someway for mercenaries to do the same thing. As history has shown, when you use pirates and mercs, you should be careful, cause it will come back to bite you. I don't want to see your own units suddenly switch sides or something, that would get annoying and frustrating, but something like them turning victims into barbarians, recruiting outside your control, might make them more interesting.

 

[Habilis]

Otherwise, hidden nationality improvements are slated to come in in Shadow phase, possibly for everyone, possibly for Svartalfar only.

Perhaps it can be better implemented not by racial traits, but through some adjustment in civics? Some kind of military focusing on "covert" actions? After all, not only the Dark Ones love to use such methods.

 

[cvlowe]

I was wondering if there were any plans to improve hidden nationality units. As it stands right now, they lack flavor, and aren't very effective. You can use them to scout rival territory, and harass an ally or enemy you are not at war with, but you can also be expected to be attacked by anything, and often everything, nerby. You cannot pillage improvements, you cannot capture or raise cities. for pirates, this hardly seems like piratical behavior to me.

I disagree. HN units are very useful.

The pact giants- you can use them early on in the game to go beat up on neighbors without declaring wars, limiting their growth and making them less of a threat in the future.

Pirate ships are useful if you get them early on for exploring enemy territory and taking out their weaker ships when you can.

Any other units you can make, like from the Council are useful for the same reason- you can go harrass your opponents without declaring war.

Yes, any units that sees a HN unit will generally beeline for it and attack it. You need to plan for that is all. I generally keep Larry, Curly and Moe in a stack and always keep one from attacking so he is full strength to defend the others from the inevitable counter-attacks. Pirate ships- if you are really worried about them- keep them in stacks of at least two for the same reasons. I think this is a perfectly appropriate weakness given the added flexibility they provide.

 

[kevjm]

Slightly off topic, has anyone noticed that hidden nationality units can't enter the borders of someone you have a peace treaty with?

 

[wig]

Slightly off topic, has anyone noticed that hidden nationality units can't enter the borders of someone you have a peace treaty with?

kevjm, are you trying to move your HN troops directly from one of your cities across the border? If so, you won't be able to do that. Try moving them into a non-city square in your territory first, then moving them across the border.

Personally, I think that HN troops are a little unbalancing. They should cost a lot more to support, and be bribable outside your territory as long as they retain their HN status (it would make the Loyalty spell a lot more useful). Those changes would reflect the inherent unreliability of mercenary troops.

 

[Habilis]

They should cost a lot more to support, and be bribable outside your territory as long as they retain their HN status (it would make the Loyalty spell a lot more useful). Those changes would reflect the inherent unreliability of mercenary troops.

But that's only applies to mercenaries themselves. I'm using units gained by building the Council of Esus, and in my opinion they are more "spec-ops"-trained elite units, than hired swords.
Through, I admit, some balance issues do exist. I eagerly await for the first HN-mage with fire spells...

 

[soibean]

how well do they heal inside of enemy/neutral territory? I know that your own units receive a penalty outside of homeland territories but do hn units do so as well since they're technically "not" your units?
I was just thinking that pirates/mercenaries/hill giants would be able to survive and heal adequately no matter where they are

 

[Seont]

I disagree. HN units are very useful.

The pact giants- you can use them early on in the game to go beat up on neighbors without declaring wars, limiting their growth and making them less of a threat in the future.

Pirate ships are useful if you get them early on for exploring enemy territory and taking out their weaker ships when you can.

Any other units you can make, like from the Council are useful for the same reason- you can go harrass your opponents without declaring war.

Yes, any units that sees a HN unit will generally beeline for it and attack it. You need to plan for that is all. I generally keep Larry, Curly and Moe in a stack and always keep one from attacking so he is full strength to defend the others from the inevitable counter-attacks. Pirate ships- if you are really worried about them- keep them in stacks of at least two for the same reasons. I think this is a perfectly appropriate weakness given the added flexibility they provide.

Well I bet the giants are scout fodder post patch, but thats irrelevant, I imagine any tactics you are using are likely effective largely because of the limitations of the AI. For example, one incredibly cheap tactic i employ is to park a mercenary in a fortified position outside an AI city and watch as it sends units out of its defendable, fortified city to attack my Merc, leveling him like mad. A human would know my unit cannot do anything but sit there and look menacing and just ignore it, or get it when it crosses open ground. They can't pillage, they get nothing from attacking the city unless barbarians are close by, then they can weaken the defenders for them(but more likely, they loose to the superior defenses and 50% chance become one of the defenders(mercs only) Yes giants can do some damage, but you shouldn't be getting them *THAT* early. if you are playing on a difficulty near your skill level, or with humans, likely whatever gains you made are largely offset by your expenditure at getting the pact. Plus the 1 movement they get in the early game, they take a while to get anywhere worth hitting on the larger maps.

As for pirates, well caravals can explore rival territory, and exploration isn't piratical behavior, raiding towns, attacking trade, thats piracy. The one pirate fleet i built(i surrounded the continent) only managed to nab 2 non barbarian ships before the AI actually showed some intellegence, it harbored its fleet(its not like it needed it anyway) until it got frigates and was able to hit and run from its harbors. Where is the flavor? where is the effectiveness? without a real need for a navy, pirates will never be effective or piratical

I'd like to ask what tactics you, or anyone else for that matter, employ with HN units that are effective, and further would be effective against anything but the AI. The only uses i have found are so very cheap, i try not to use them(okay i use them frequently, but i feel bad about it, honest).most namely sitting outside a city, or using HN summoners, which the AI also can't seem to figure out how to deal with.

Incidently i'm not complaining about the AI beelining for HN units, i was more trying to point out the limited usefulness as scouts because of this behavior.

Hey, someone forgot to include Shemp!! OutRage I tell you. OutRage!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

A hidden nationality unit parked outside a city can threaten the city. HN unit can capture cities, but only if you nations are at war. If a layer is at war with any other civ that has HN units, they could think that your HN unit belongs to it. Also, you sould keep in mind that some barbarian units have HN and could pose a risk to the city (granted these are mostly animals, which would not enter cultural borders under barb controll).
What irritates me is that if I build the Baron in a city that has the council, he will not spawn any werewolves so long as he has HN. Also irritating is the fact that an HN marksman unit will always take out workers first, but is unable to actually capture them.

 

[Seont]

A hidden nationality unit parked outside a city can threaten the city. HN unit can capture cities, but only if you nations are at war. If a layer is at war with any other civ that has HN units, they could think that your HN unit belongs to it. Also, you sould keep in mind that some barbarian units have HN and could pose a risk to the city (granted these are mostly animals, which would not enter cultural borders under barb controll).

True, an HNat unit could threaten the city when at war, but why use HNats when you are at war, and ofcourse the main point, there still isn't a reason for the defender to leave the city to attack the unit, better stay in the fortified city. There is no reason to leave to attack. This is an exploitation of an inadequate AI.
And other than clan embers, unless i'm mistaken, barb units are fairly obviously barbarians, since only clan embers makes lizardmen, orcs, etc.(and then they'd have to have the council too). As for the animals, like you said, they can't enter your cultural borders, so its obvious once again, and animals don't pillage. Or have i misunderstood you on this point?

What irritates me is that if I build the Baron in a city that has the council, he will not spawn any werewolves so long as he has HN. Also irritating is the fact that an HN marksman unit will always take out workers first, but is unable to actually capture them.

si, no es bueno. If an HNat summoner summons units, and they get the HNat trait, then why shouldn't you get HNat converts from the baron and others. I agree completely, makes no sense to me(and annoyed me when i went to all that trouble to try and get an army of HNat werewolves)