Infantry#14
Emperor
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I think the Sumerians' UU are too powerful for early conquest. A strength 6 axeman (-25% against melee) can easily take out archer defenders. I think they can rival with the Roman Prateorains.
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Super Sumerians
- Thread starter Infantry#14
- Start date
NKVD
Cossack
they'll fall easily against chariots...
What? There's a very easy early counter the Sumerian UU, the chariot,
Strength 4, plus 100% attacking axeman gives 8 strength, more than enough to face off a Sumerian axe rush.
Furthermore an agressive civ with a barracks can gain a 35% bonus over an attacking (albeit unpromtoed) sumerian axeman. Not to mention more advanced units like horse archers.
Strength 4, plus 100% attacking axeman gives 8 strength, more than enough to face off a Sumerian axe rush.
Furthermore an agressive civ with a barracks can gain a 35% bonus over an attacking (albeit unpromtoed) sumerian axeman. Not to mention more advanced units like horse archers.
Gaius Octavius
Deity
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And if you're not so lucky to have horses...?
TheLastOne36
Deity
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Lol just spam axeman's next to my enemy in the early game, I'm loving the world!
Sumeria has just became my fav civ!
Sumeria has just became my fav civ!
PimpyMicPimp
Regrets His Username.
I think it's generally agreed that the Axemen is the best early military unit, so any UU that improves them is pretty powerful. Without chariots, though, you're toast and the current AI (BTS AI may improve this) doesn't seem to understand that Chariots can beat an Axemen spam/rush. I just annihlated Napolean recently with Axemen and a few catapults. He just kept building archers and spearmen...
Superior numbers, more axeman....or entrenching your units on hills and woods....
Gaius Octavius
Deity
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Yes, but if you have the bad luck not to get copper and horses.... (shudder)
Don't laugh, either. I had this problem in a recent game as Genghis Khan. I didn't get copper until farily late in the ancient/classical era, so if the AI had been smart enough to rush me while I still only had 2-3 cities (none with either resource) I might've been toast.
Don't laugh, either. I had this problem in a recent game as Genghis Khan. I didn't get copper until farily late in the ancient/classical era, so if the AI had been smart enough to rush me while I still only had 2-3 cities (none with either resource) I might've been toast.
If you're unlucky enough to lack horses and copper you're in serious trouble if you're facing Sumeria or not. I do remember going to war with axeman very late to secure iron working, it was risky, but there are always options.
Bakuel
King
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It looks like an axeman who is better against archers and attacking cities. It's good, even great UU. However chariots and axeman still pose a problem.
Chariots of course get 100% bonus against axeman, they beat them.
And vs axeman, 5+50% melee vs 6+25% that's about 7.5 vs 7.5 isn't it?
This UU would kick butt during an AI game for sure, but I don't think it's anything that needs to be balanced. You just have to build less archers and more axeman... (Like everyone already does.)
If you don't have horses or copper you screwed... But if you didn't have this you'd be screwed against a normal axe rush, it would just take longer.
I hope the new AI builds more axeman as well. If it does, this UU wouldn't be as powerful as you first think. Still great, but no roman. Closer to the immortal in power and usefulness.
Chariots of course get 100% bonus against axeman, they beat them.
And vs axeman, 5+50% melee vs 6+25% that's about 7.5 vs 7.5 isn't it?
This UU would kick butt during an AI game for sure, but I don't think it's anything that needs to be balanced. You just have to build less archers and more axeman... (Like everyone already does.)
If you don't have horses or copper you screwed... But if you didn't have this you'd be screwed against a normal axe rush, it would just take longer.
I hope the new AI builds more axeman as well. If it does, this UU wouldn't be as powerful as you first think. Still great, but no roman. Closer to the immortal in power and usefulness.
Bakuel
King
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@Thedrin
Really? I never can figure out how civ calculates damage. (ok my math's just bad.)
That makes Vultures even less super... More like the result of some strange swordman axeman love story or something...
It has 6 strength like a swordsman... It beats archers and is a better city attacker like a swordsman... It beats swordsman like a axeman... But is beaten by other axeman like a swordsman
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Really? I never can figure out how civ calculates damage. (ok my math's just bad.)
That makes Vultures even less super... More like the result of some strange swordman axeman love story or something...
It has 6 strength like a swordsman... It beats archers and is a better city attacker like a swordsman... It beats swordsman like a axeman... But is beaten by other axeman like a swordsman
.Take the base strength. Increase that strength by the bonuses provided by the combat promotions only to get the new base strength. Sum the bonuses of both units - bonuses cancel. Apply the resulting bonus to the defending unit.
E.g combat I vultures and combat I axes. Base strength of 6.6 and 5.5 respectively. The final bonus is 25% in favour of the axeman.
If the axeman attacks adjust the vultures strength like so: 6.6/1.25 = 5.28 < 5.5
If the vulture attacks adjust the axemans strength like so: 5.5*1.25 = 6.875 > 6.6
Some of the bonus types are exceptions. I believe that the attacking across water penalty - from a transport or across a river - is always applied to the defender but I don't know how.
E.g combat I vultures and combat I axes. Base strength of 6.6 and 5.5 respectively. The final bonus is 25% in favour of the axeman.
If the axeman attacks adjust the vultures strength like so: 6.6/1.25 = 5.28 < 5.5
If the vulture attacks adjust the axemans strength like so: 5.5*1.25 = 6.875 > 6.6
Some of the bonus types are exceptions. I believe that the attacking across water penalty - from a transport or across a river - is always applied to the defender but I don't know how.
Bakuel
King
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@Thedrin
Baaaa! You are bring numbers against me too confuse me and set me into disorder.
Ok, I think I understand you.
This UU is starting to remind me of Cathrage's, even though powerful, it was beaten by the same unit it replaced. Since axeman are such a important part of early armies to most people, there's always going to be plenty around.
This unit is not looking that super anymore.
If I understand this correctly, there is no real defensive counter to axeman. Chariots only get their bonus on attack. So if you make a stack of Vultures and bring some chariots to counter axemen, it would lose to a stack of axemen and spearmen since the axeman win attacking chariots. While the chariots would lose while attacking spearman...
Is this true? If so, this UU may lose it's great status in my eyes.
Baaaa! You are bring numbers against me too confuse me and set me into disorder.
Ok, I think I understand you.
This UU is starting to remind me of Cathrage's, even though powerful, it was beaten by the same unit it replaced. Since axeman are such a important part of early armies to most people, there's always going to be plenty around.
This unit is not looking that super anymore.
If I understand this correctly, there is no real defensive counter to axeman. Chariots only get their bonus on attack. So if you make a stack of Vultures and bring some chariots to counter axemen, it would lose to a stack of axemen and spearmen since the axeman win attacking chariots. While the chariots would lose while attacking spearman...
Is this true? If so, this UU may lose it's great status in my eyes.
NKVD
Cossack
guys its their UU has -25%....minus 25% against melee...so axemen too can do great like Bakuel said...
diablodelmar
no comment
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I think the Eygptian War Chariot would have an easy time over the Vulture, assuming the Axemen bonus carries over with UUs.
Calder
Warlord
The early axeman rush requires a little more thought than just warring with axeman. Spearman are an intregal part of my stacks to counter the obvious weakness. I think the Vulture will be a very powerful early unit.
The source was a bit confusing. I think it said something like a 25% reduction versus melee. I tihink this'll mean they get 25% bonus versus melee as opposed to the axeman's 50% bonus.
Jerrymander
Epistemologist
Yes, a -25% vs Melee would make this UU nerf'd.
Calder
Warlord
The extra strength should enable the Vulture to eventually gain the Shock promotion giving back the 25% loss vs melee. For the majority of them though I might prefer CRI-III promotions. Interestingly you wouldn't be too worried if you missed out on iron immediately as you already have a strength 6 melee unit.
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