Supporting units with food

[osram]

One thing that I have always missed in civ3 is the importance of food for the units. Food supply is very important for the military both in peace and war.
Consider the following (when I say army I mean 5+ units in one square, not the unit "army":
1. An army can stand in one square (city or not) in civ3 w/o problem
2. An army can be surrounded by enemy units (city or not) in civ3 w/o problem
3. An army can walk through square after square of desert in civ3 w/o problem
Is anything of this realistic?


I have been thinking of a ... food-eating system.. eh =)
Every unit eats ½ food per turn. This means grasslands (2 food) support 4 units, tundra and hills (1 food) 2 units and desert and mountains (0 food) 0 units.
The same applies to units in cities. A normal city (2 food surplus) supports 4 units, but with such a "big" defence, it won't grow.

But...
There should be certain units that supply a square with food from other squares. So you can have units in the desert but you have to supply them with food. And you can have a large army in one square but you have to support it. How far this supplier unit can transport the food depends on which technologies you have (food-conservation etc) and if you have roads or railroads.
You can also have storage units which you fill with food so you can supply units walking through a desert for example. Like a mobile granary (this idea gives granary a new function).

The food-transporters will also make it possible to move food between cities. You choose a square he should take food from and one to provide and he does every turn.


I haven't played civ1/civ2 but I think both of them had some type of unit support. Cities supporting units with food? Don't like that idea though.

Probably ideas like this have been discussed many times before but I couldn't find any thread and the search engine didn't help much.

Note: Amount of food eaten per turn etc are to be balanced

 

[apatheist]

The key term you are looking for is supply lines if you want to see discussion of similar ideas on this forum. Generally, it wasn't completely tied to food, but a more abstract idea of supply that encompassed food, ammunition, communication, morale, and other factors.

 

[Texan General]

This is definately a supply line discussion. While I agree with supply lines, I don't agree with limiting supplies to food. All the materiels of an army must be taken into account in order for the system to be realistic. My personal favorite model is effective distance (by Apatheist?).

 

[frekk]

Food is good for ancient or medieval settings, as the ability to raise and support armies was entirely dependant on food. But this is much less the case now, getting rations to the troops is not nearly so difficult as a host of other factors like spare parts, ammunition, mail, etc. But it's ok for the earlier epochs, as there were few other materials required, and those that were (eg arrows) were not difficult to procure or transport or even manufacture on the spot.

Generally speaking, I do not like the ideas for supply lines presented here at Civfanatics. They are overly complex and not compatible with a game like Civilization. What these people really need is a turn-based grand strategy wargame of some type, which can make room for things like supply lines by sacrificing other features (like the possibility of a relatively peaceful game that is still interesting).

However, I don't terribly mind your idea Osram. Other than saying that some units should require shield support rather than food support (eg many of the modern units), its agreeable to me ... nice and simple. A unit simply has to trace a supply line back to one of its cities without passing through any enemy units or ZOCs. I don't like the idea of trying to set limits on length of supply lines, its just too much for a game like civ and belongs in a game devoted exclusively to war. But I think there's room for a simplified concept of supply in civ.

 

[apatheist]

Generally speaking, I do not like the ideas for supply lines presented here at Civfanatics. They are overly complex and not compatible with a game like Civilization.

I would be interested in knowing more about the problems you see. The simplest and best supply line ideas have only a few features. You have your own territory, a "green zone" around it, a "yellow zone" around that, and everything else red. In the first two, you don't worry about supply lines. In the third, you may lose an HP each turn. In the fourth, you definitely lose an HP every turn. The size of the zones generally has to do with your level of technology and/or infrastructure, while their shape depends on the shape of your nation and the presence of enemy units.

 

[osram]

Food is good for ancient or medieval settings, as the ability to raise and support armies was entirely dependant on food. But this is much less the case now, getting rations to the troops is not nearly so difficult as a host of other factors like spare parts, ammunition, mail, etc.

Well, I agree on that one.

A unit simply has to trace a supply line back to one of its cities without passing through any enemy units or ZOCs.

It was something like that I proposed with my food-transporters, though it was only food I mentioned. You tell the food-tranporter which unit to support (eg. marine) and from where he should bring food (eg. closest city).
In the beginning it's probably easier to get food from the surroundings but in the modern times the units need shields (great idea btw) and the food-transporter transports shields too.
Of course it would make micro-management an issue. But maybe you could automate those guys so they find a unit to support and supports him from a city? If you lack transporters you're noticed and can build some more.

Hmm... sounds really annoying... anyway =)

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I would be interested in knowing more about the problems you see. The simplest and best supply line ideas have only a few features. You have your own territory, a "green zone" around it, a "yellow zone" around that, and everything else red. In the first two, you don't worry about supply lines. In the third, you may lose an HP each turn. In the fourth, you definitely lose an HP every turn. The size of the zones generally has to do with your level of technology and/or infrastructure, while their shape depends on the shape of your nation and the presence of enemy units.

That sounds real good (although I might change it a little bit to deal with a ~100 hp model)

you might also have special abilities that would modify this (like foraging that reduces hp loss on 'habitable terrains' or Cold/Hot weather gear that minimizes hp loss on tundra/desert)

Plus this could be integrated with healing so things like barracks and such would improve it.

another bonus to this would be the limitation on early game exploration, no bronze age transcontinental diplomacy. Exploring down the coast or through the interior would require building bases (either some special worker type outpost or a full fledged city/town) to extend that effective range.

 

[Deep_Blue]

A broader name (than Supply Line) is Logistics .. Rise of Nation implemented a logistic concept But it is was basic in the game. There was a logistic unit that have a radius and the army must stay in that radius, and the logistic unit must move with the army and stay protected at all costs. the problem was it made the attack harder and the defence easier in the game, you simply have to attack the logistic unit first then the army will start losing HP and eventually beaten.
I dont like the idea of logistic to be implemented in Civ4 , because it can easily ruin the game if implemented poorly. Logistics will add complexity to the game and make combat much harder, and it is not easy to implement it correctly.

 

[apatheist]

you might also have special abilities that would modify this (like foraging that reduces hp loss on 'habitable terrains' or Cold/Hot weather gear that minimizes hp loss on tundra/desert)

Those are interesting ideas, but I'd be pretty happy if just the simple core was in.

Plus this could be integrated with healing so things like barracks and such would improve it.

Those things are in cities, though. You'd have to go back to the city to heal.

another bonus to this would be the limitation on early game exploration, no bronze age transcontinental diplomacy. Exploring down the coast or through the interior would require building bases (either some special worker type outpost or a full fledged city/town) to extend that effective range.

For simplicity's sake as well as gameplay, it should be a full-fledged city.

A broader name (than Supply Line) is Logistics .. Rise of Nation implemented a logistic concept But it is was basic in the game. There was a logistic unit that have a radius and the army must stay in that radius, and the logistic unit must move with the army and stay protected at all costs. the problem was it made the attack harder and the defence easier in the game, you simply have to attack the logistic unit first then the army will start losing HP and eventually beaten.

Well, that's a poor way of implementing it.

I dont like the idea of logistic to be implemented in Civ4 , because it can easily ruin the game if implemented poorly. Logistics will add complexity to the game and make combat much harder, and it is not easy to implement it correctly.

Name a single meaningful feature of which that is not true.

 

[Texan General]

<----Stands Whole Heartedly Behind Apatheist

That said, I again wish to emphasize that even before the modern eras supply lines were important. No matter how hard you try you cannot supply 100,000 men in any area on forage alone for long. For that matter, 10,000 is extremely difficult and as few as 1000 can be a serious challenge in a hostile environment. This means the supplies should never be limited to food alone, but I go on. The issue has been addressed with the shields idea I believe though I still disapprove of the system in general. Apatheist has offered the simplist most realist methods I've seen in the "Effective Distance" concept.

 

[apatheist]

Thanks. I had another thought of how to do supply lines. Rather than your units losing HP as they get further away, maybe they just lose MP. The further out you are, the slower your movement. Within your borders, you go fast. Kind of a half-baked idea, but I thought I'd put it out there.

 

[TruePurple]

I like the idea of supply carts that fill up on food and need to be replenished ever so often. This can be done from enemy fields/cities as well.

Soldiers should need to eat the same amount as a city pop, or at least half as much as a city pop, as well as coming from city pop.(a pop head being used to create troops)

 

[Andrew_Jay]

I'd like to see completely surrounded units take damage each turn. Anything else seems too complex.

I remember in Civ3 being attacked with a Stack of Doom of dozens of Infantry. I pinned them in with some Mech Infantry, and they were surrounded on all sides by either my units or the sea. Unfortunately, I had nothing to attack such a huge stack with (and the AI wouldn't attack me either), and had to wait a long time until I had enough resources freed up to hit it.

 

[frekk]

I'd like to see completely surrounded units take damage each turn. Anything else seems too complex.

I tend to agree, but I think it should be a bit easier to do than that ... I think if you can ring a unit or stack with ZOCs it should have an effect too, rather than needing to have units in every single square and all adjacent to it.

But I do tend to think ideas about overlapping zones of supply and supply units are too involved for civ. For one thing, coloured supply zones would clutter the map (I don't want yellow and blue grasslands and forests etc), and there is also the matter of amphibious landings (which would necessitate supply units which seem like an unnecessary inconvenience to me .... and would it be just one supply unit whether it was a stack of 2 or 200 units? SoDs are bad enough already without encouraging them even more).

 

[Texan General]

The Effective Distance concept accounts for those issues. It's really rather ingenius when you get to looking at it. Furthermore it allows for special forces that act like special forces, and military campaigns that look like military campaigns. Ultimately I deem it a must have. I wish I had a link but unfortunately I do not. Perhaps Apatheist can provide one to the original thread on the subject.

 

[apatheist]

How can I deny such a gracious request? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=122656

 

[Phoenix_56721]

Here is my idea: you have supply trucks on land, supply ships on water, supply planes in the air. You have to have a supply line that runs from you’re country to where you’re attacking. They carry food, ammunition, fresh troops and anything that a real army needs. If your supply lines get cut, your troops after so many turns will start loosing health and run out of ammunition. You would need combat engineers to fix damaged road, railroads build bridges over rivers and so on. You might be able to send some supplies to your units that are cut off by air drops in enemy territories, but it won’t be enough to last long.
So in effect make the supply lines just like they are in real life, your supply lines are everything in war without them your done.

 

[sir_schwick]

Anyone who has played Hearts of Iron knows that overall it is a very involved and complicated wargame. However its supply system is deep yet does not require tons of micromanagement and does have some relevance to this discussion. First, you could have a map toggle between supply map and regular map so you could see where you were in the green, yellow or red(HOI only had red or green). Also, they used an ingenious convoy system to handle places you did not have land acess to.

Combine this with effective distance and bases, its easy to see where supplies end up and amphibious landings would require some kind of 'beachhead base'. Unless you establish quickly the beachhead dies, which is realistic .

 

[apatheist]

For those of us who haven't played Hearts of Iron, would you care to describe how its supply system works?

 

[sir_schwick]

All units base their supplies from somewhere, usually the last port or allied province they were in. As long as a province can trace an uninterrupted line to the home territories(where supplies are allocated at first), it is in supply and shows up green on map mode. Anything else is red, but there is a way to supply things overseas or seperated by land provinces. You could send convoys which supplies and oil from one port you own or control to another of yours or an ally. As long as there were enoguh transports, the supplies were shipped and all provinces connected to that square received their supplies from that square. Of course you had to ship enough supplies for the troops using that system, but I am not prescribing and exact copy of the HOI system. Instead I was demonstrating that you can have a comprehensive yet easy to understand logistics system for a strategy game.

Spoiler :

Overall I would recommend Hearts of Iron to anyone, especially when discussing grand strategy game theory. It has given me many ideas and gets the focus correct. Also it is bloody good fun.