Svartlfar - Really Evil?

[Psychic_Llamas]

I agree Khai, that would be quite something...

 

[wilboman]

But if they were willing to do that for a noble goal, they would be good. The darkness of the FfH setting lies not least in the fact that the end really does justify the means here, although that is not the only thing that defines the good/evil divide.

 

[TravellingHat]

'We're evil and we do a lot of femdom BDSM...' that typically includes a lot of scantily clad women with whips. You say that like its a bad thing

Good and evil are just mechanics to denote loose "sides", providing an axis about which blocs might come about. Even with this, I regularly see same alignment civs at each other's throats over religious differences or competition for land and resources.

Consider the Bannor: I wouldn't consider their blind obediance to be morally good, and if history tells us anything it's that this will usually lead to a bad end (that and Romans 3 Carthaginians 0, despite an excellent mid-game by man-of-the-match Hannibal).

So the svartalfar are evil because they oppose the Ljosalfar who are by tradition good. That said, treachery and cruelty are seldom considered virtues. Mind you, when Faeryl's portrait pops up, "virtue" isn't really in the forefront of my mind.

From the fairy tale perspective, there were those who were mischievous but essentially fun-loving and did your housework for you, granted wishes and so on, and then there were those that stole your children, battered you stupid and left you bleeding in the road. I recommend Jack Vance's Lyonese novels for a good take on the moral ambiguities of these pre-Christian European folk tales.

 

[zxcvbnm]

Good and evil are just mechanics to denote loose "sides", providing an axis about which blocs might come about. Even with this, I regularly see same alignment civs at each other's throats over religious differences or competition for land and resources.

Indeed:

Spoiler :

FfH alignment consists of three parts:
Order (not religion but system)
Ethics (how you treat other people)
Politics (do you want to end the world)

--

Ethics is the "real" good and evil as usually defined. It depends mainly on your way of treating those weaker than you. It isn't however the only thing affecting the good-evil alignment in FfH, because there are good vs. evil wars that are more political than ethical.

Politics varies from active preservationist to active destructionist with passive preservationists and destructionists between them.

Active preservationists are those who want to save the world and are willing to fight the evil and bring the battle to their lands. It's often very militant and they treat their enemies sometimes as cruelly as their enemies treat them. Examples are Bannor and Mercurians

Passive preservationists do what they can to prevent armageddon by peaceful ways. They defend themselves when attacked but don't very eagerly go on offensive. Elohim and Ljosalfar are typical passive preservationists.

Passive destructionists are people who are on the "evil" side. Their actions contribute in the ending of the world although that is not their goal, but power or revenge. Most evil civs and people fall in this category. Savants of the Ashen Veil trade their souls to demons, not to end the world but to gain personal benefit.

Active destructionists are the rarest group: only a few people in Erebus can be considered them. They are focused in ending the world, not caring about themselves or anyone else.

It's just that "good" and "evil" mean two different things in FfH which confuses

 

[Ekolite]

Imagine a race that is educated, arcane and powerful...but utterly willing to sacrifice those weaker/beneath themselves in pursuit of a higher, perhaps even noble goal.

@khai: This sounds like the calabim to me, or possibly the bannor.

 

[Grillick]

(that and Romans 3 Carthaginians 0, despite an excellent mid-game by man-of-the-match Hannibal).

There's a (probably apocryphal) story about Hannibal that I like.

Years later, after the Battle of Zama, Scipio and Hannibal met at the court in the Middle East. They got to chatting, about war, and battle, and tactics, and the past, and Scipio asked Hannibal, "Who was the greatest general of all time?"

Hannibal replied, "Alexander, of course."

Scipio said, "Ah, but what if you had defeated me at Zama?"

Heannibal responded, "Well, then I would be the greatest general of all time."

 

[Dora190]

.but a cunning, civilized and ruthless evil would be something new for FFH.

but utterly willing to sacrifice those weaker/beneath themselves in pursuit of a higher, perhaps even noble goal.

A) I was just asking about the artwork...
B) In campaigns I ran, thats what the drow were, my players would never hang around when they met a drow.
C) You're describing normal humanity.

 

[KillerClowns]

In my mind, I always envisioned the Svartalfar as... efficient. Their assassins wouldn't do a mystical "dance of death" when a quick stab between the ribs would do the same job. I imagine them being like their Ljosalfar brothers, hunters without remorse, without unnecessary cruelty, but hunting sentient prey for gold or power. Note that I way unnecessary; if "making an example" of somebody with a slow, horrible, and painful death is worth the extra time, they'll do it. But if they just need someone dead, they'll slit their victim's throat so fast they won't even feel pain and disappear into the shadows. Of course, a lack of cruelty does not make them good, or even neutral. They're still cold-blooded, merciless, and willing to snap your neck for a bag of gold. But they won't perform a dark ritual to send your soul to Hell... unless their employer's bonus is large enough.

 

[CyberChrist]

...they won't perform a dark ritual to send your soul to Hell...

Seems to me that their deceptive propaganda have gotten to you and left you mezmerized in a thrall like state (stage one of the ritual to send your soul to hell).


EDIt: Actually then I don't think they are collecting souls for hell as such, they are just doing it for their own amusement.

 

[TravellingHat]

I always imagine they cause pain for the same reason a cat tortures a mouse - it's just the way they are.

In a way, it's a more appropriate model for creatures that are so entwined with nature than the tree-hugging goody two shoes. After all, you'll see precious little charity outside of a close family group in the wild, but you'll see plenty of brutality and domination.

 

[zxcvbnm]

Ljosalfar aren't tree-huggers. They are like nature, both beautiful and cruel in need. They protect their own people but have little mercy for outsiders and those who don't play by their rules. They follow the survival of the fittest but don't want to tip the balance of nature by doing it.

 

[Grey Fox]

Yeah exactly. I always imagine svartalfar as cats (mixed with spiders) in human form. Not in the sense of their physical appearance, but in their ways.
Cats toy with their prey and spiders hide in the shadows and lay traps. Spiders are also matriarchal in the way that the females often eat the males after they have mated.

 

[TravellingHat]

I envision the Ljosalfar, under Arendel's leadership as being more virtuous than simply protecting their own and nature. I would not think of her as without mercy, though that mercy may be in short supply when dealing with some particularly hated enemies. Amelanchier or Thessa might be more ruthless, particularly Amelanchier who for me is the archetypal hunter: kills to survive and has no qualms about it, but not for pleasure and never to the excess where it might threaten the environment his survival depends on.

For me, Faeryl is the same race, just a different political faction within it, and so shares that traditional affinity for nature. She just manifests it's more merciless and wantonly cruel side. I could also see her lacking the restraint of her fellow elven leaders, and harming nature through a blind lust for power or by indulging her penchant for intrigue.

Of course, the key words here are "I envision": this is my personal take on things. If others see things differently, that's just as valid.

 

[zxcvbnm]

Arendel is the of nobler elves of the past while Amelanchier and Thessa are utilitarian characters to whom ends justify the means. That's why A-P is good and A&T are neutral. I was talking about the elves of the present,
on whom a clue in 1000 clues is based. (gongratulations if you manage to work that out, it's very esoteric)

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I always imagine they cause pain for the same reason a cat tortures a mouse - it's just the way they are.

Ah, that reminds me of the story of the fox and the scorpian.

 

[.SinClaire.]

Yeah exactly. I always imagine svartalfar as cats (mixed with spiders) in human form. Not in the sense of their physical appearance, but in their ways.
Cats toy with their prey and spiders hide in the shadows and lay traps. Spiders are also matriarchal in the way that the females often eat the males after they have mated.

*licks fingers clean*
mmm...hmm? Spiders do that too?! I mean...hahaha..."too" as in I didn't know they did that, but knew some others did. I uh, yeah well I'll just post this and go now.

la di lah di dah...mmm,hmm hmm...

 

[onedreamer]

Oh come now, the dark elves aren't evil, you act like they stab all their friends in their back (they so don't!), its just bad propaganda spread by Arendel.

true !! But don't worry, Erebus. We shall cleanse Thou from the Ljosalfar evil with any means, even if that would mean go AV to succeed. *Nod nod*

 

[Ekolite]

lol! I think the svartylfar no longer have any synergies with nature like the other elves. When succelus was killed they abandonned their faith and worshipped Esus instead. That's when all the spiders and torturing came in. But still think they would have some sort of mercy upon people if they thought they could find a better use for them. I agree with Killerclowns that the dark elves are efficient with there enemies although they might well torture some prisoners to make an example of them or maybe if they were just bored.

 

[Grey Fox]

Ah, that reminds me of the story of the fox and the scorpian.

You mean they would (try to) destroy their enemies even if it meant their own assured destruction?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Mostly just the punchline. For them it'd be,
"Why did you betray us? We could have divided the world between us!"
Svartalfar: "Because that's what we are!"