There was a third section you could swap (other than art and writing) - must be artefacts.
Swapping Great Works
- Thread starter Dux1
- Start date
There was a third section you could swap (other than art and writing) - must be artefacts.
Yes, it is artefacts.
funkymunky
Warlord
So my question is, is there a point in trading works of writing? I haven't seen any building where you can theme writing works. Also, why can I not trade works of music, as those can be themed with Broadway (not sure if there are any other buildings though)?
Great Library, Globe Theater and Oxford each have 2 slots for Great Works of Writing and provide theming bonuses. Can't open the game right now to check what themes will qualify for those bonuses.
Can't explain why Firaxis decided you can't trade Great Works of Music. You can capture them when conquering cities, but, sadly, no trading. And, AFAIK, Broadway and Sydney Opera House are the only multi-GWoM buildings, so they're the only buildings in which you can theme music.
Can't explain why Firaxis decided you can't trade Great Works of Music. You can capture them when conquering cities, but, sadly, no trading. And, AFAIK, Broadway and Sydney Opera House are the only multi-GWoM buildings, so they're the only buildings in which you can theme music.
Sistine has 2 slots for Great Works of Art, not Music.
EDIT: For what it's worth, and perhaps this suggestion appears earlier in this thread, but I think it would be interesting to include some city-wide, multi-building theming bonus potential.
For example, if you have an amphitheater and Heroic Epic in a city, you can get a theming bonus based on the Great Works of Writing included in those two buildings. Similarly with an Opera House and Broadcast Tower in the same city -- theme based on the Great Works of Music in the two buildings. Or, if you have Globe Theater themed up and put a thematically consistent GW of Writing in that same city's amphitheater, you get an incremental theming bonus.
All that might be devilishly difficult to code, or to reflect intelligibly in the UI, but it would provide more of an incentive to build more of the single slot buildings in more cities. As is, unless you anticipate needing lots of museums for artifacts, you have little incentive to build amphitheaters, opera houses, etc. (much less build Heroic Epic, for that matter).
EDIT: For what it's worth, and perhaps this suggestion appears earlier in this thread, but I think it would be interesting to include some city-wide, multi-building theming bonus potential.
For example, if you have an amphitheater and Heroic Epic in a city, you can get a theming bonus based on the Great Works of Writing included in those two buildings. Similarly with an Opera House and Broadcast Tower in the same city -- theme based on the Great Works of Music in the two buildings. Or, if you have Globe Theater themed up and put a thematically consistent GW of Writing in that same city's amphitheater, you get an incremental theming bonus.
All that might be devilishly difficult to code, or to reflect intelligibly in the UI, but it would provide more of an incentive to build more of the single slot buildings in more cities. As is, unless you anticipate needing lots of museums for artifacts, you have little incentive to build amphitheaters, opera houses, etc. (much less build Heroic Epic, for that matter).
shaglio
The Prince of Dorkness
I always assumed it’s because Writings, Art, and Artifacts are all physical objects that can be traded. Music isn’t tangible, unless you think we should be able to trade the copywrites to the music.
As for gaining them on capture, I suppose you’re gaining access to the individual who created the music. Thus if you move the Great Work to another city, I suppose you’d be relocating the composer himself.
I guess, under this line of thinking, one could argue that, by swapping pieces of Great Music, you would actually be swapping the composers (like 2 sports teams making a trade). That just doesn’t seem right to me.
I always feel a little guilty when I trade with the AI - it's always solely for my benefit, and I have no idea if the trade would actually even benefit them! Plus I never just leave any in the window for them to decide if they want it. I guess that might change if I played a solely multiplayer game? Ha.
Yes, ai never uses theming bonuses.
I suspect it does or tries to, if it can (which must happen rarely). I've tried twice to put a GW up for trade just to see, and an AI swapped it after a while both times. And both times it was an AI that had built a wonder with a theming bonus. More rarely I've seen an AI offering a foreign GW up for trade. Conquest wasn't involved, so I presume it got the GW because another AI civ picked up what it had offered up for trade.
The AI seems to use the system only minimally (on King, anyway). The "market" is most often very static (I swap things, the AI is stuck with what I swapped, and most civs seem not to trade at all) but then in my games it's fairly rare the AI has many buildings with which to play with theming bonuses... Short of conquest it's hard to see how the AI can succeed with some bonuses (2 GW from the same civ that isn't the owner's civ, for instance). Best case scenario they manage to swap 1 work from a specific civ, so short of conquering the right cities only a human player manages to achieve that one, pretty much...)
sendos
Immortal
The 2nd musician wonder is Sydney Opera House. It houses 2 Great Works of Music.
Cicerosaurus
Emperor
This is correct. You can only swap Writings, Art or trinkets.
compwiz1202
King
I love when I play a dual game and my opponent offers the work I traded in trade. Obviously if there's no one else and I traded it, I wouldn't want it back 
I also wish there was some notification when an AI offered something for trade.
I also wish there was some notification when an AI offered something for trade.
Yeah, the entire mechanism of treating Great Works as "things" is problematic, from a realism point of view. It's kind of absurd, actually, when applied to Great Writing and Great Music, the cultural "benefits" of which have nothing at all to do with a physical object.
It's not like the artistic renown garnered by Hamlet would shift away from England if the original first version were stolen by, or traded to, another civ. The artistic value, represented in the game as culture/tourism, is tied to the creation of the Work, its very existence in history, not to any sort of ownership. The Aztecs could procure every single copy of Hamlet in existence, including the original, and it still wouldn't change a thing about Hamlet's Englishness. Ditto for music, only moreso; the artistic value of a piece of music has nothing whatsoever to do with the physical location of...of anything, really. How does one steal the artistic value of a work of music? How could Egypt possibly "obtain" Mahler's Symphony No. 5, such that Egypt instead of Austria would reap its cultural renown?
The concept of "transferability" of Great Works is a poor representation of the real-life relationship between art and culture. It would be much better, in terms of realism, if Great Works were permanent additions to the civs that create them, granting permanent cultural/tourism bonuses. But of course this would pose severe gameplay and balance problems. This is unavoidable, of course, and demonstrates why applying a real-life lens to the game, beyond a certain shallow depth, usually results in disappointment.
(Of course, the physicality/transferability idea fits a little better with Artifacts and Great Works of Art, both of which are indeed linked to the "thingness" of the Work. It is the physical displaying of the items that produces tourism, so it kinda makes sense there. Still, though; stealing or trading for Water Lilies may grant the Maya (say) a tourism boost, but it's not like the world would suddenly think that the painting was a product of Mayan culture, or that it was any less French. I find it hard to believe that both tourism and culture would be affected by the transfer of the physical painting.)
weregamer
Gandhi of the Mongols
From memory:
Broadway wants 3 music from same era and culture
Sydney wants 2 music from same culture but different eras
Great Library wants 2 writing from different era and different culture
Globe Theater wants 2 writing from same era and culture
Oxford wants 2 writing, but I don't remember the bonus rules
Sistine Chapel wants 2 art from same era and culture
Uffizi wants 3 art from same era and culture
Hermitage wants 3 art from different eras and different cultures
Louvre wants 2 art and 2 artifact, each from different era and different culture
A Museum gives no bonus unless both slots are the same type, art or artifact. It gives +1 if both are from your culture or both are from not your culture (doesn't matter if the same or different cultures. It gives +1 if both are from the same era. It gives +2 if both conditions are met.
Museums are the only things that can give partial-match bonuses. All the wonders are all-or-nothing.
Broadway wants 3 music from same era and culture
Sydney wants 2 music from same culture but different eras
Great Library wants 2 writing from different era and different culture
Globe Theater wants 2 writing from same era and culture
Oxford wants 2 writing, but I don't remember the bonus rules
Sistine Chapel wants 2 art from same era and culture
Uffizi wants 3 art from same era and culture
Hermitage wants 3 art from different eras and different cultures
Louvre wants 2 art and 2 artifact, each from different era and different culture
A Museum gives no bonus unless both slots are the same type, art or artifact. It gives +1 if both are from your culture or both are from not your culture (doesn't matter if the same or different cultures. It gives +1 if both are from the same era. It gives +2 if both conditions are met.
Museums are the only things that can give partial-match bonuses. All the wonders are all-or-nothing.
Mudrac
Orc Warchief
The only way you can get more Great Works is through conquest, cannot be done through swapping, the number stays the same. I was thinking why there isn't an option for your spies to steal great works of art or writing, and artifacts of course. I mean just like stealing thecs, but in this case your spy must be at level 3 to steal great works, that way there won't be a frustration from AI spawning spies and stealing your great works. But even with a level 3 spy this operation would be very risky.
Stealing Great Works would be very different from the current Steal Tech system. When you steal a tech from another civ, the other civ doesn't actually lose anything. They still have the tech. There is a gain for the spying civ, but there is no loss for the victim civ. This would not be the case for a "Steal Great Works" function; the victim civ would suffer a (large) loss.
Whether or not such an idea is good or not is up for debate. I personally feel that it would be a terrible idea, if only because it would be terribly frustrating and un-fun to have theming bonuses disrupted by a RNG spy roll. Regardless, the "permanent loss" aspect of stealing Great Works would be a large departure from the current espionage system, and would require lots of balance testing and whatnot.
Cicerosaurus
Emperor
I agree with Lochlann. Spies and diplomats have a different purpose than orchestrating heists.
Mister_General
Chieftain
what's the point of swapping great works anyway?
Cicerosaurus
Emperor
To get the theming bonus. If you build the Louvre you need art from other Civs (that's an example).
