Switching ideologies

[Simplicity2]

So, one thing about the city flipping that I haven't yet been able to figure out... How is switching ideologies actually supposed to help anything?

An example: Maybe you were the Autocratic military-based Venice, and didn't focus on culture at all. Industrial era rolls around, and you're very low on culture. Which means that the Freedom tilting civ next to you with high tourism is making your civ very unhappy. And your cities are going to flip soon. So you switch to Freedom. And now... your former autocratic allies with high tourism are making your cities unhappy unless you switch back?

Switching ideologies isn't going to fix the problem that your culture is low. So are you not just doomed to start losing cities to somebody, assuming there are still some civs left in the game?

 

[AriochIV]

Presumably only one or two other civilizations will be going for a culture victory, and so may have high enough Tourism to cause you to have to switch Ideologies. If your culture is so pathetic that every other civ has Influential status on you... well then you're in trouble.

I think the point here is that even if you're not going for a culture victory, you still need a certain amount of culture for defense against tourism.

 

[Gali]

Its a penalty for completely ignoring culture. also since they made culture more active and complicated its a needed boost to make it competitive in non culture VCs. After the novelty wears off will Domination and Science players really want to play with GWAM. This offers culture a use in all VC.


Another purpose is to add to decision making in choosing ideology. Do you choose the ideology of the dominant culture civ, or the one you would prefer. What if the powerful culture civ is not part of the biggest ideology? Do you chase those two free tenets of the unpopular Ideology if they leave you isolated and under cultural pressure? Do you take the ideological or Diplomatic hit. The choice could also lead to new tensions with neighbors if they made another choice. They want Ideology to shake up the world diplo scene and have large scale effects to liven up the late game.

 

[Monado]

An example: Maybe you were the Autocratic military-based

Easy answer: Invade.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Presumably only one or two other civilizations will be going for a culture victory, and so may have high enough Tourism to cause you to have to switch Ideologies. If your culture is so pathetic that every other civ has Influential status on you... well then you're in trouble.

I think the point here is that even if you're not going for a culture victory, you still need a certain amount of culture for defense against tourism.

Indeed. The end result SHOULD be that not building culture will kill your empire as effectively as not building science/military.

 

[PreLynMax]

Easy answer: Invade.

This is probably the best solution that you could get. If you are running Autocracy, then it's more than likely you are war-focused nation, I suggest you invade the incoming threat.

 

[Red Pearl]

We don't know enough about tourism. I think you get unhappiness if your ideology less popular then ideology. Civilizations can increase the public opinion of their ideology.

 

[AriochIV]

As far as we know, unhappiness and negative public opinion about your Ideology doesn't start to happen unless someone gets Influential Tourism with you (that is, their Tourism exceeds your Culture). Take a look at this graph from the Culture/Tourism screen:

The first thing to note is that Assyria and Indonesia don't seem to have chosen an Ideology yet; it appears that these negative effects don't happen if you don't yet have an Ideology.

Brazil and Morocco have each gained Influential Tourism with 2 of 5 civs, and surely those 2 are Poland and the Zulus, who are suffering unhappiness and negative public opinion as a result. The Zulus are getting a double dose because both Brazil and Morocco have different Ideologies, whereas Poland and Brazil are both Order.

If another civilization gets Influential Tourism with you, they may be getting close to winning a culture victory, and you may need to attack them anyway; switching to their ideology may save you for the moment, but you're going to lose anyway if you don't do something. If a whole bunch of civilizations have Influential against you, then you screwed up, and you die.

 

[Heinage]

This is precisely what will make the game so much more interesting!

 

[Simplicity2]

Yeah, I think the answer appears to be, declare war with everyone, which stops city flipping to that civ.

It seems to be a more interesting mechanic than it initially appears. Your Civ could have terrible culture, but could be on the verge of winning the culture victory, by having high tourism from capturing Great Works. So assuming you're not at war... Your Ventian civ could be influential with Brazil, and they could be influential with you at the same time. What does that do, I wonder? Do cities only flip when the other guy is influential with you and you are *not* influential with them? Or do you both just swap cities back and forth?

It also seems to encourage Autocratic civs, who look a bit disadvantaged in the culture/tourism game to always be at war (besides the fact that they're just plain good at that).

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

I believe your cities will only flip if you DO NOT share the same ieology, as the flipping is tied in with ideologies (and pretty much with unhappiness).

 

[EgyptRaider]

If you're so military focused that you completely ignore culture that would mean you'd have to declare war... I'm pretty certain that declaring war was stated as one of the solutions to prevent city flipping.

 

[AriochIV]

Your Civ could have terrible culture, but could be on the verge of winning the culture victory, by having high tourism from capturing Great Works.

Great Works produce Culture as well as Tourism, and you have to have Culture buildings to house them in. So if you have high Tourism, you're going to have high Culture as well.

 

[Simplicity2]

Great Works produce Culture as well as Tourism, and you have to have Culture buildings to house them in. So if you have high Tourism, you're going to have high Culture as well.

That's a good point. Although there are a few ways to get pure tourism like Autocracy's +100 tourism for each civ for each great person you get (which seems like a LOT given the screenshots we've seen so far, but not like a lot compared to culture production in a typical game). And the great person itself could be used for another tourism boost if it's the right type.

There still could lead to a case of both sides being influential on each other though.

 

[SalemSage]

I like how they've designed the culture victory. Given that anything that boosts your tourism also boosts your culture, that means that your tourism can NEVER be larger than your culture.

This means that if your tourism is Influential in a civ, their tourism cannot be influential in your civ at the same time.

Or, to break it down into maybe slightly simpler terms, every civ has a High Value and a Low Value. If your tourism exceeds a civ's culture, your Low Value is bigger than their High Value, meaning that your High Value is wayy higher than their Low Value.

...I dunno, that just seems kind of neat to me that way.

 

[Simplicity2]

Maybe this is the difference between "Dominant" and "Influential" come to think of it? Whether your tourism is greater than theirs?

 

[Gali]

Ah Salem at least one late game building and some tenets benefit only tourism. The Radio Free Europe in Level 3 Freedom is 33% tourism from broadcast towers. Order has Cultural Revolution and Dictatorship of the Proletariat with the same bonus to tourism though with different origins. The Airport turns culture into tourism. However before at least modern I believe everything that adds tourism adds culture. Late game stuff is just simulating the increased ease of travel and communication that benefited tourism more than culture.

 

[adwcta]

Ah Salem at least one late game building and some tenets benefit only tourism. The Radio Free Europe in Level 3 Freedom is 33% tourism from broadcast towers. Order has Cultural Revolution and Dictatorship of the Proletariat with the same bonus to tourism though with different origins. The Airport turns culture into tourism. However before at least modern I believe everything that adds tourism adds culture. Late game stuff is just simulating the increased ease of travel and communication that benefited tourism more than culture.

Yep, also earlier things like diplomats, trade routes, open borders all benefit tourism without benefiting culture.

So, you can have a decent tourism industry and a mediocre culture... so that if you as Freedom are going for culture victory, and an enemy AI as Order is also going for the same victory, you can exert mutual pressure on each other and make both places unhappy (and with help from their parties be in danger of "revolt").

Keep in mind, in terms of ideology, it's cumulative from multiple other civs... so your culture, even if it's pretty strong, is not going to stand up to the influence of several civs with opposing ideologies and high tourism.

 

[Martinus]

I don't think it's cumulative, adwa.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

As far as we know, unhappiness and negative public opinion about your Ideology doesn't start to happen unless someone gets Influential Tourism with you (that is, their Tourism exceeds your Culture). Take a look at this graph from the Culture/Tourism screen:

The first thing to note is that Assyria and Indonesia don't seem to have chosen an Ideology yet; it appears that these negative effects don't happen if you don't yet have an Ideology.

Brazil and Morocco have each gained Influential Tourism with 2 of 5 civs, and surely those 2 are Poland and the Zulus, who are suffering unhappiness and negative public opinion as a result. The Zulus are getting a double dose because both Brazil and Morocco have different Ideologies, whereas Poland and Brazil are both Order.

If another civilization gets Influential Tourism with you, they may be getting close to winning a culture victory, and you may need to attack them anyway; switching to their ideology may save you for the moment, but you're going to lose anyway if you don't do something. If a whole bunch of civilizations have Influential against you, then you screwed up, and you die.

Actually if you check previous Screens, Brazil and Morrocco are Influential over Assyria and Indonesia... they are only Popular(?) with Poland and the Zulus.

So it seems you do not need to be Influential in order to cause someone else unhappiness... you just need to be Popular?(maybe even just Familiar?).. and have a different Ideology.

So it seems Tourism itself (Which can go greater than culture from Theming Bonuses, certain World Wonders, Futurism, Hotel Great Work Bonuses, and Concerts..and the Carnival) is useful for causing unhappiness in your enemy.