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Tactics: invading AI continent in Modern Age

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Out4Blood, Nov 13, 2001.

  1. Arexander

    Arexander The obvious lurker

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    No, they appeared first time in C3C.
     
  2. Fiddlin Nero

    Fiddlin Nero Prince

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    Wow! some good stuff in there, thanks.

    On the other hand, was I just flamed and patted on the head?

    Hope you don't mind if I just plug along and take the continent in my own way, without nukes and keeping my city count down, purely abitrary and silly I know, but heh, I'm having fun!
     
  3. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    That is the main thing, to have some fun. Let us know how you progress. Here is the last segment of the game as far a I got.
     
  4. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    2342AD:
    Finally shipped out the invasion forces.
    The AI does its usual hapless job of invasion. It sends a steady, but slow steam of sub and transport/escorts.

    These come around the island towards Mendes. Perfect for me as I had parked all the boats there and many of them are carriers.

    So I wait for them to close to where my boats and sink them after they are bombed. They have not launched a nuke in a few turns and none have got through after the first barrage. I drop a single nuke when they are trying to connect the AL.

    I have pretty much stripped the land of MA and MI. I think I left about 6 MI and some guerilla. I have disbanded all the cavs. Need to check and see if Airfields are in PTW, I forget. Anyway will make an airport, if need be on each continent. I will strip down all cities making MA units after this turn and have maybe 3 keep making them.

    I doubt that I will need any more as I would expect they will mass to attack my beach head and die.

    2345AD:
    Town founded on Hia land. Rushed a barrack with 2 transports. Station MA armies to block access, until I can get a wall and civil defense up.

    I did raze two towns next to me, just for grins. They only have two std bombers, so I dropped in a few jets, just for fun.

    Here is the current count for Hiawatha:
    workers 55
    infantry 37
    spears/rifle/musket 6
    MI 447, down about 1100
    MA 100, down about 700
    RA 17
    Tactical 5
    Xport 13
    Carrier 1
    sub 5
    Battleship 14
    Aegis 21
    Bomber 2
    Heli 3
    jet 72
    Guerilla 13
    Tank 7, no AL so they make these.

    Now making 695gpt on the way back up after cranking out so many settlers. Currently have 159 towns. WW is coming online, so may have to revolt.

    IBT:
    They launch 4 nukes and 1 hits a tundra town.

    2346AD:
    I revolt as many towns want to riot next turn, so I am sick of it. That will be the end of WW issues in 2 turns.

    IBT:
    The jets show their true value as the two bombers slide right in and drop bombs. The jet, oh they did nothing, what else?

    2347AD:
    Workers are now half speed during anarchy, but I have most of the important work down. It appears spies do not work during a revolt as I do not have an option to investigate a town. Never revolt after the middle ages.

    2348AD:
    In Monarchy now and cleaned up the towns. Now 700gpt, but that will go up as I get rid of units in a few turns. I used more xports to rush the Airport and I made a few airfields on the mainland. Next turn will let them come in as I have a wall, barracks, civil defense up now. Will rush in a harbor and then a temple and that is all it needs.

    IBT:
    Bomber even shots down one of my jets, nice. Well it tried.
    They got one of AL hooked up, while I slept, so more MA and nukes. SDI shot down all three launches. A fair size landing of 28 units at first tundra area.

    2349AD:
    WLTQD breaks out. I rush a temple and we start the turn at 752gpt. I should have 5 or 6 settlers to plant.

    Used almost all my cruise missiles to sink the landing boats. Sure miss lethal bombardment now. The landing party was not much sweat as I still have scores of RA's that I did not bother to send over.

    I stopped making units, other than settlers. If I cannot beat them with what I have on hand, I should stop playing. Of course the Adviser says we are weak compared to them, but he is stoned.

    IBT:
    Rather light, the SDI got another nuke. They seem to have only sent 20 or so MA's to attack. They had 103 plus any they finished. Another landing party is at the door in the same spot.

    2350AD:
    It seems they only dropped about 20 units next to the town? I guess I am used to C3C and Sid as I expected at least 300. All they have done is to let me do some leader fishing. I think I got 5 cleaning the towns they had on the mainland. One back to back. So we will see how it rolls this time.

    Cleared the towns tiles of troops. Razed the nearest town. 168 towns now and 804gpt, without scrapping all those lame jets.

    2351AD:
    They only sent 6 MA to attack and 2 others parked.
    Made a leader on the mainland, not really where you need one. Formed another MA army. Iroq has only 28 MA now.

    Send out some armies to start dishing out the pain.

    2352AD:
    Leader form army. Raze a few towns. Their Navy is nearly wiped out now.

    2353AD:
    Disbanding RA to rush a few markets as I think invasion will be very limited now and I even have an MA army on hand in the mainland. I long ago stop making armies from the MA and have sold all factories and such.

    2354AD:
    No invasion as he no longer has any transports. No tactical nukes, no carriers, no subs, no bombers, no heli and only 7 MA. Got another leader. Disband more jets and a few more RA and now have 930gpt. Like I said they are toast. The slower healing of armies is the only thing that is making the destruction take so long.

    2355AD:
    I made 4 or 5 leaders this round, too many to keep track of now. I am up to 26 armies. I have been rushing 1 MA in the beach town with the transports. When they are gone, will use some of the Aegis or RA. The town has so many units in it that it is a real pain to find MA to fill the armies with. Razed another metro and town.

    I am mostly disband the workers on site, unless they can get home next turn. I am not going to bother making many towns. Maybe only 1 to grab the furs. I have to wait to get big enough to pop a settler there. May I will rush a granary next turn.

    180 towns now, with a few more settlers in place and some coming out, should fill the continent next turn.

    Even with the loss of over 2000 unit, mostly MI and MA, the Adviser says we are average compared to them? I am only only other nation, how do you come up with an average here?

    If he had maybe 3000 more units, he may be average compared to us. Anyway all that is left is to grind down his towns a few at a time and get more and more armies to speed it up.
     
  5. Fiddlin Nero

    Fiddlin Nero Prince

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    Impressive!

    My only comment would be about Jet Fighters. In PTW they are the only anti-aircraft, and, like so many things in CIV, 1 or 2 is useless, but 10 to 15 puts quite a dent in the bombers.
     
  6. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    I will toss in some info from Alexman that is valid in Civ3 and PTW. Let me say that none of the AA is great. My perspective is that rather than put up a ton of shields for jets, put most of them into Knights or some unit and prevent them from getting bombers in the first place.

    Once the have bombers, you have to react to that. The best way is to use fast moving armies to raze towns that have bombers. Yes make some fighters, but not massive numbers. Having 30 jets in a town will not do more than having 4, except you have replacements for losses.

    In C3C I would use flaks and have 4-6 in a town that needs some AA. In a bind, I would make a Sam site, if I have the tech. I am going to try to not let them get that far. Maybe I cannot stop them from having the tech, but I can keep them from getting so large the can do a great deal with it.

    One of the things I have observed is that the larger the map and the fewer the opponents, the more likely players are to face a runaway. Especially on a continents map.

    It takes a lot longer for one nation to take out all the land on a continent, if it has 5 or 6 civs on it. A huge map should have 16 civs. That means one nations fair share is a lot less than, if only 5 are in the game.

    FWI Alexman was a beta tester for civ and went to work for them and worked on Civ 4, so he had access to some of the code. That is why his corrupt paper is still used.

    From alexman

    AA combat formula

    The real strength of each AA unit is 1/10th of the value shown in the editor. So Flak has a strength of 0.2.

    Each AA unit in the tile being bombarded takes a shot against the defense of the bombarding air unit. The chance of shooting down the air unit is A/(A+D), as with all other forms of combat in Civ3. Remember, A is 10 times less than what is in the editor for the AA unit.

    The maximum number of AA units that are given a chance to shoot down the plane is 4. Any AA units above 4 are ignored.

    So, for example, if you want the formula for the probability of N units with a strength of A shooting down a plane with defense of D, here it is:

    1 - (D / (D+A))^min(N,4)

    D is the defense value of the bombarding air unit (2 for a bomber). No modifiers apply. A is the AA strength of the AA unit (0.2 for flak). N is the number of AA units, not the number of air units.

    min(N,4) = N, if N less or equal to 4
    min(N,4) = 4, if N greater than 4

    The SAM battery works like this:

    For each bomber, there is a chance equal to the interception chance for the SAM to fire (50% against conventional, 5% against stealth)

    If the SAM doesn't fire, the bomber continues as if the SAM were not present. This includes the chance of getting shot down by AA fire.

    If the SAM fires, it has a A/(A+D) probability to shoot down the plane (A=8 for the SAM, D=2 for the Bomber). If the plane is not shot down, the Bomber survives, but it loses its chance to do any damage as well.
     
  7. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    Here is screen shot of2371AD:

    2359AD:
    Cleaned up the towns again to have no unhappy pop and stop growth, so now 1188gpt. I see I need one more settler to actually fill in all the land. I should have roads on all the flat tiles next turn. I have rails on most of those tiles and many hills, without making the work crew larger. It would have been done if I had the proper
    number of workers, but I did not make more as it would just be more work for me.

    I have 20 or so slaves on the other land, not sure why I keep them. I made one more town to grab the furs. 29 armies. Whoops just got another leader.

    I just looked at the scores and Cleo is barely over 5k and in 3rd out 5 nations. 2nd is Hannibal and he was long gone when I load the save. Hiawatha is almost 10k. I probably have raze 20 towns of his.

    2364AD:
    Back to Back to Back leaders now 38 armies.
    Back to Back right after that, now 40.
    They only send about 20 units and I got 5 leaders from them.
    Razed 5 towns.
    Not sure what the deal is, but as a test I built one Stealth Bomber and it came out with no HP bar. It does not say vet as it should. I built it in the one airport I have. That reminds me I need to sell it as I have no use for it.

    I was going to send over units, but I am not making any on the mainland and it seems PTW does not let me send workers over. I had to send the last few transports I had to bring a few back. These are to be added for settler creation.

    I am going to make a larger area so I can park slaves and spare RA units without an army to cover. Too far back for them to reach in one turn. I am also bringing over the army from the mainland as no landing anyway.

    I found a use for the Marine armies. I am covering oil as I spot them and can reach them in decent time. Would like to cut of all the units that need oil. Rubber, if I get the chance and force them to make rifles or cavs.

    2366AD:
    Not sure when, but Hia is now a commie.

    2367AD:
    I made a leader on the IBT. I made a third town to fill the gap and it does not have any culture, so they can attack it. I did not put any armies in it as I wished to encourage them to attack and die. I put only MI and RA.

    I now have a wall and barracks and will have civil defense next turn. I will not make culture here. 42 armies to start the turn.

    2368AD:
    Leader on defense. I made MI armies of the last two as I am going to make a town to grab the dye and the incense. I want to discourage attacks at those places and focus them where they have been.

    Funny AI path logic. First a tank managed to route itself past three separate armies and arrive as a 1HP and die. Then a few units later an MI did the same thing and both went ahead and attacked. Did not know enough to stay out of the ZoC.

    2369AD:
    I am sure I rarely had Stealth bombers or RA in PTW, but they suck compared to C3C. I use 32 stealth and 41 RA to hit only 17 units. Often they did even worse. This is what I would expect from cats. Anyway Hia sent them after the Incense town. I had hope to discourage it with an MA and MI armies inside.

    The Dye town, I will not take any chances. I will put a Marine army on all the tiles around it to ward them off. (decided to open 1 hole)

    They are wihout any surface ships and only have 3 nuke subs, but no nukes. From the top tundra to the old capitol of Salamanca is cleared out, save my Dye town. Dye town will get the other MI army inside and every MA that can return from battle. 20 MI and 20 RA.

    Those 17 units yield 4 leaders, now 47 armies. May have to start scrapping Marine armies, if I hit the limit for my towns. I am thinking of making a few more towns to cut the continent across the narrow point in the middle.

    Normally I would be making towns to fill the open spaces, but Hia is not making settlers to replace lost towns, so I can ignore the space. Still if I cut it, then I can clear the tundra and not have to keep defenders in those back towns.
     
  8. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    Done:

    2375AD:
    Finally cleared the north end. I have my line of towns and armies blocking passage, so the north can only be reached by boat and they have none. They start the turn with only about 40% of the continent left. No armies of late. In fact I have used MI to finish off 1hp units as I ran out of elite MA units.

    Sell of some more stuff, mostly bombers and RA. Still have about 80 bombers and I am not even using them.

    Working on the southern tundra area now. Tundra is slow going even for MA armies, as tiles have trees or hills and mountains.

    2387AD:
    Pinned them in the corner now. Have settlers either in place or will next turn to make cut offs. This free all workers to go any place as I am clearing pollution and putting up roads or rails. No improvements, just being anal.

    I cannot see oil, but it could be under a town or a units. They do have rubber, so that will be the last area as it is the farthest away. They only have 18 towns left. I have 200, with 3 more to come. That will do it.

    This is what they end the turn with:

    Workers 4
    inf 1
    tank 3
    MI 74
    RA 3
    BB 1
    Aegis 1
    Jets 13

    2385AD:
    Lost my spy, so no counts. I have started on the clean up on the land above the mid continental block as The area behind it is clean. The last choke is in place with 3 towns, but they did not attack.

    I failed to see a hole and they grabbed two of my settlers, sloppy. They put them and a stack of slaves in the closest town, nice. I grabbed the town and the slaves. Take the native workers from my settlers and add them to the town they came from and pop out settlers again.

    They are making Marines, rather than other units. This is bad choice as they cost 100, while Inf cost 90. I think it chooses them as they have an 8 attack, but the 6 defense is much worse than 10 for Infantry.

    2385AD:
    Went around mainland to scrap all MI and RA units. Left 8 MA elites. Scrapped all boats there as well. Left a few places with bombers as I finally got under the free support level.

    They have two towns in the SW corner of the tundra that are surrounded. Three towns on the other finger are cover for next turn.

    2386AD:
    Got a leader, it has been a while. Form and fill 48th.
    Lower finger is cleared of Iroq.

    Had enough, so I will use more aggressive tactics to finish this turn. Hold towns, move up RA and ping tower units and towns. Use the small fleet of carriers and their 32 bombers, took out the last 8 towns or however many it was and lights out.
     
  9. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    I am not sure when I suggest it would be about 40 turns, but I did not miss it by much, if I did.

    Remind me to not play any more PTW late game saves. I really hated the RA and Stealth Bombers. It may have been an issue with play in C3C, but no promotions, even when killing planes in towns.

    The hit ratio was worse than cats. I expect RA to hit with a fairly high percent and often gets more than 1 hit point of damage in C3C. Stealth Bombers are quite good in C3C.

    The weaker armies and healing issues was not a problem. Final screens
     
  10. Fiddlin Nero

    Fiddlin Nero Prince

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    Sorry you had no fun vmxa, I'm enjoying my pluggers game immensely.

    I had not seen anything on that blocking/trapping of SOD by armies before; it's great. If anyone hasn't seen it the attached war+9.sav file has a SOD(100+MA) up against 2 marine armies and a couple MI. About a minute into the next turn the SOD attacks the MI until the marine army comes to the top, and what do you know, the SOD stops attacking and starts moving off to the east. Sweet!

    The key seems to be getting enough of a buffer(no roads/rails) to keep the SODs from getting next to your city. So the SOD gets to a distance of 2 tiles from your city, you put up enough armies to block it from attacking the city or surround it for the trap, and before you know it SODs are no big deal.

    With the blocking tactic in place there really is no doubt about getting the foothold. Which I suppose really doesn't apply anymore because you could expand from a single landing with the tactic, moderately easy, probably. Something about AI stupidity, it tends to attack overwhelmimngly a single point, 2 points of attack it handles poorly, 3 points of attack and it seems to be overwhelmed, and eventually just pays attention to 1 or 2 points of attack.

    Well my original goals for this PTW game were to keep global warming at bay, keep minimized(backs broken) AI civs, and figure out how to attack a distant, well established continent well into the modern era. Well, 1 out 3 ain't bad, and I learned something significant in the process: wahooo! In year 10 of this little war I attained that peace agreement with the Iroqouis and I'm now using settlers to push my borders closer to future targets and replenishing my MA and rebuilding my armies with MA. I'm in no hurry to get back to warring, I'll get bored of cleaning things up and getting things just right for the next war(never seem to quite get there) in about 20 or 30 turns. I'm not a warmonger all the time!
     

    Attached Files:

  11. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    I did not say I had no fun, just that I really hate how poorly the bombardment seem to be in PTW. Getting 3 leaders in a row is always fun.

    It is well known that the AI will not attack an army, if it evaluates it as too hard. In practice that means that in the AA any full health army with three members is save, as long as it is at swords or better.

    In the middle ages, swords will be good until cavs. Knight armies will be good, unless you get to tanks or better, cavs are good the whole game.

    The key is the level of health. As you move off of full health things change. The army that is red, will get attacked at any age.

    The over riding thing is that, IF you put armies in a town all bets are off. There are many factors that determine, if they will attack.

    The thing about blocking, is it is intended, at least by me, to be temporary. You want to hold them off, until you get the town ready, not till you get a peace deal.

    In this game I was surprised at the lack of fight. They just did not put up any real attempt.

    One tactic that can be use is a funnel. This was depicted in an epic game, I think Bamspeedy. You need a lot of attack prove armies. You set it up by blocking. Place a long string of armies in a gauntlet. Then open the door. Now as the rush to the town, the ZoC gets in some licks.

    The idea is that no units arrive at the town with more than one HP.

    I forgot to post this pix:
     
  12. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    A key thing about armies being attack proof, they have to be the top unit in the stack. So if you put in an army and a mech, the MI will be top unit. So the stack can be attacked.

    If you put the marine army alone, it will not be attacked either.
     
  13. ThinkTank

    ThinkTank RL Addict

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    The Funnel of Doom was first described by SirPleb in his huge sid game. The game is described in the thread SirPleb, Going for Sid, a must read if you have not already (but I suppose vxma did read it but forgot that the funnel idea came from this game). The post in which he first describes the funnel idea is here.
     
  14. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    Yeah I got the name confused, but for sure it was SirPleb. Sorry I get worse on these things every years, even though my test recently says no senility yet.

    BTW I forgot to mention on the army limit it is 1 army per every 4 towns.
     
  15. Sweetchuck

    Sweetchuck King

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    I might be reiterating what may have been already said, but the AI is programmed to throw everything at you right out of the gate (which makes landing say a scout on the far shore out of a turns reach valuable because the AI will dump every single unit from every single city they have to go after that one unit), but my tactic is not so much to draw their units to the far shore but to ride the wave with defensive units (muskets, pikemen, infantry - whatever coupled with artillery of whatever fashion is available) for a couple turns. Once the tide rolls out, settle and work from there.
     
  16. Fiddlin Nero

    Fiddlin Nero Prince

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    I just got severly thrashed by the AI, thinking I had it whipped having achieved a 3 beachhead foothold on a very late Modern Age continent. The SOD was initially 2000+, yep that's thousand. Well, what I learned was that if you don't deal with it quickly by nukes or traps/funnels then it will break up and become quite effective in destroying your footholds.

    And though I liked my idealistic goals of dealing with pollution/global warming, keeping city count down does not look like a viable solution for any Modern Era warmongering global domination scenarios, oh well!

    Back to 4000BC for me.
     
  17. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    Well with what they had, you would be hard press to hold them with a simple landing force. The key thing is to not let them get that large.
     
  18. Nimitz96

    Nimitz96 Chieftain

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    ok so whats going on you have 3000 units and 200 cities!!!! I have ad most 1010 units of ALL types and most are Elite MA/Navals. and whats the deal with the top 2/3 continent not setteled!! what type are u playing??
     
  19. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    Hey Nimitz96, can you use some quotes or something? I do not know what the context for your post was (#58). Who has the 3000 and 200 cities, you mean Hiawatha in the save Nero posted?

    Is this address to Fiddlin Nero? If so, he told us why he did not settle the land, it was merely a form of role playing.
     
  20. Fiddlin Nero

    Fiddlin Nero Prince

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    So Nim, have you read the thread?

    vmxa: I wouldn't call it roll playing, more like playing outside the box and seeing where the game took me.
     

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