Teaching non colony professions

[Cueball252]

Hi Guys,

Big fan of WTP. I had a suggestion I wanted to share. I often find once one of my colonies is at university level of school that I put some of the non colony professions like Hardy pioneer, vet soldier etc into a industry building I have no raw resource for. I do this so I can have students graduate in those professions. The only annoying thing is the spam about how you do not have the raw resources. My proposal is that you use the tavern and add some slots that increase as it levels up to put these guys, or professions you want to teach but do not use in a colony. They could even contribute towards tavern income or related founding father points (Exploration for Seasoned Scout, Military for Soldier, Missionary for Religion, Trade for Hardy Pioneer.). I think this would be particularly cool if you captured one of the other Civ's unique versions of this unit allowing you to teach the unique version

Without better knowledge of the complexity for my suggestion I think it should be a simple task:
1) Art for Taverns and professions in question exisit
2) Adding slots to a building shouldn't be difficult? (sorry if it is!)

Not an essential thing at all but think it may add some nice utility.

Cheers

 

[raystuttgart]

My proposal is that you use the tavern ...

The Tavern is going to be used already for Profession Slots for Entertainer.
(see concept "Happiness".)

And no, it is not that simply to realize a concept like you suggest.
It is also a bit artificial and hard to understand for players to "abuse" the Tavern for it.

Because Special Buildings (with Profession Slots) currently need to be able to produce some Yield, e.g. "Education".
It is also pretty difficult to teach something like that to AI.

Adding Profession Slots in a Special Building (for a Yield that exists) is pretty easy though.
Founding Father Points are not really a Yield (they are indirectly produced by Yield Hammers from Carpenters, if you choose so).

By the way:
Non-Citiy Professions can also be "taught" by using "Learning by Doing".
So if e.g. a normal Settler works long enough as a "Pioneer" he will eventually become an Expert for it.
(It is probably a lot more efficient than having your Experts "Hardy Pioneer" sitting around idle in a Building.)

 

[Cueball252]

The Tavern is going to be used already for Profession Slots for Entertainer.
(see concept "Happiness".)

And no, it is not that simply to realize a concept like you suggest.
Because Special Buildings currently need to produce some Yield, e.g. "Education" and cannot have idle Workers.
It is also pretty difficult to teach something like that to AI.

Understood - still my point stands that currently your only choice is to keep these professions in unoptimised roles which is not the best user experience. Until I think of some other idea of how to implement I will continue as I am. I tend to put them into bells production once a city is maxed out on liberty.

 

[raystuttgart]

Understood - still my point stands that currently your only choice is to keep these professions in unoptimised roles ...

No, it is not.
See my comment about "Learning by Doing".

You are currently expecting that "Out Door" Professions (like Scout or Pioneer) will be taught by a school system in Cities efficiently.
But these "Out Door" Professions could be learned by non-Experts through "Learning by Doing". (Which might be more realistic.)

You get an "Seasoned Scout" by Scouting.
You get an "Experienced Soldier" by Fighting.
You get a "Hardy Pioneer" by working as a Pioneer.
...

 

[Cueball252]

Very true on the Learning By Doing. Consider my point food for thought rather then a suggestion then

I would also add regarding the point about learning by doing that a university city with some education founding fathers and or a leader that give education boost is getting them out pretty darn quick!

 

[raystuttgart]

I would also add regarding the point about learning by doing that a university city with some education founding fathers and or a leader that give education boost is getting them out pretty darn quick!

True, but that is more or less a unintended side effect - which was not intended - but you discovered and currently exploit.

However I do not really consider it to be a good strategy to use "OutDoor Experts" like that because you could use them more efficiently.
And training the non-Experts to become Experts for "OutDoor Professions" by "Learning by Doing" works as well.

But now you are asking for us to formalize by creating a feature and thus even make this exploit efficient.
It is not a bug / exploit! It is a feature.

 

[Cueball252]

It is not a bug / exploit! it is a feature.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

I mean isn't making experts the whole point of the university system?

To say you can make experts another way so just do that doesn't really speak to the point he is making. University educating is almost certainly more efficient as you can bang out those people in multiples. Which is the whole purpose of the system. (Take one expert, stir well, make more experts)

If educating those outdoor professionals is an exploit then they need to be removed (from the university). I don't see why it would be though. Scouts can be taught survival skills and plant lore etc. Pioneers can be taught engineering and soldiers can attend a military academy.

A building like a boarding house could be added that produces a small amount of a non-physical resource (like bells, crosses or happiness(when it comes)) that allows you to store a handful of teachers without getting spammed by the unnecessary resource alerts. It is not making it more efficient, it is already efficient because it is the whole point of the education system to be an 'industrialised' version of learn by doing, you learn by learning.

It is simply making the 'teacher' system less annoying by not having messages that constantly tell you you are out of resources when you don't actually care!

 

[raystuttgart]

If educating those outdoor professionals is an exploit then they need to be removed (from the university).

No, not the Educating the Outdoor Experts in Schools itself is an exploit.
(If you use the Pioneer to work on a Plot and thus make his Expertise available for Students, I do not consider it an exploit.)

But parking them in an "unusable Profession Slot of a Building" (because the Profession does not have the raw Yields it would consume)
- just so you can get a Non-Experts to learn their Expertise because all usable Plot or Building Slots are already take by more useful workers - is.

It is also not really efficient because you a need to put a Student into "School" and also have your Expert being useless in the "unusable Profession Slot of a Building".

A building like a boarding house could be added that produces a small amount of a non-physical resource ...

The problem with this:
We do not have any more space for new Buildings, when we are going to give Tavern Profession slots.
The City Screen is absolutely packed to the brim.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

though I would actually argue to have a teacher teach they would logically not be doing a job but actually doing the teaching.

(it was always a weird part of the system for me that the teacher is outside farming tobacco while some how passing on his knowledge of blacksmithing)

If the screen is rammed though the screen is rammed. I wonder if you could do something like a ghost building 'on top' of the Uni, that doesn't actually have graphics but places a second line of slots at the top of (or basically somewhere around) the Uni for teachers

 

[raystuttgart]

though I would actually argue to have a teacher teach they would logically not be doing a job but actually doing the teaching.

That is simply not how the "Education System" works.
You simply put Students into the School and they can learn all Expertises of Experts working in town.

I wonder if you could do something like a ghost building 'on top' of the Uni, that doesn't actually have graphics but places a second line of slots at the top of (or basically somewhere around) the Uni for teachers

Generally the "Education System" works well enough without having a specific "Teacher Profession" Slot.
It is not worth the effort for me to change that. (There is nothing broken to it.)

And just throwing Experts into "unusable City Slots" to make their Expertise available really is an exploit to me.
Then you will simply have to live with the consequence of getting a message for "not enough raw material" every turn.

If the screen is rammed though the screen is rammed.

It is, once I give Tavern Profession Slots for Entertainment, there is absolutely no more space for other Buildings with Professions Slots.

 

[Nightinggale]

I do not consider this a major issue. The school building (in this case university) can learn the expert level from the teacher and once the school knows it, the teacher can move on. There is no need to permanently station the teacher in the colony.

It is, once I give Tavern Profession Slots for Entertainment, there is absolutely no more space for other Buildings with Professions Slots.

We didn't come this far by accepting limitation. I have already planned a colony screen drawing code rewrite (well not complete rewrite, more like code structure rewrite) at some point to support widescreen better. Since everything will be easier to mod after that, adding room for more buildings shouldn't be an issue unless you want to add 729 buildings or something else similar way out of proportions.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

nice!

So what you are saying is all the years of work I put into my 730 building mod is just wasted because you quit at the final hurdle! TYPICAL!!

 

[raystuttgart]

I do not consider this a major issue. The school building (in this case university) can learn the expert level from the teacher and once the school knows it, the teacher can move on. There is no need to permanently station the teacher in the colony.

Was that changed after I had retired a few years ago?
Sounds like a really good change.

We didn't come this far by accepting limitation.

True.

I have already planned a colony screen drawing code rewrite (well not complete rewrite, more like code structure rewrite) at some point to support widescreen better.

I know about that, but will it help as to allow more Special Buidlings in City Screen?

Since everything will be easier to mod after that, adding room for more buildings shouldn't be an issue ...

That would really give us a lot of freedom to do a lot of cool features.

Actually the limitation in City Screen is one of my biggest problems considering some of the feaeture ideas I have.
I simply thought we could not realize them anymore though because the space in City Screen was already used up ...

Summary:
I am really looking forward to your City Screen redesign.

 

[Nightinggale]

Was that changed after I had retired a few years ago?
Sounds like a really good change.

I checked the log. It looks like the first version of this came with:

TAC - EDUCATION COST SYSTEM - koma13, KingMB, Netbandit - 23.11.09

I do plan on altering it a bit for 2.8 though. Same effect, but less memory and CPU usage.

Actually the limitation in City Screen is one of my biggest problems considering some of the feaeture ideas I have.
I simply thought we could not realize them anymore though because the space in City Screen was already used up ...

One of the issues with the colony screen is that it draws a 4:3 screen and then it stretches to fill the screen. This means we have a 12:9 display using 16:9. In other words 1/4 of the pixels in the width are unused. However even more important by making each "box" on the screen much more modable, we can move them around as needed and to a much higher degree hide boxes and show others. This means should we need it, we can hide all the buildings and display something else. Or we could hide the garrison. Once we are allowed to go down that path, we have essentially unlimited space. We just need to make sure it's not confusing for the player and not making it impossible to display A and B at the same time if it makes sense to have them together, like needing to drag a unit from A to B.

 

[raystuttgart]

I checked the log. It looks like the first version of this came with:

I was not talking about the original feature modification / improvement of the School System of TAC. (by koma13)
I was talking about "Schools remember the Experts that have been working in the City".
Because I was pretty sure that they do not remember and only allow the Experts to be trained that are currently working in the city.

But maybe I just misunderstood, misinterpreted your post.

 

[Nikostolpidis]

I do not consider this a major issue. The school building (in this case university) can learn the expert level from the teacher and once the school knows it, the teacher can move on. There is no need to permanently station the teacher in the colony.


We didn't come this far by accepting limitation. I have already planned a colony screen drawing code rewrite (well not complete rewrite, more like code structure rewrite) at some point to support widescreen better. Since everything will be easier to mod after that, adding room for more buildings shouldn't be an issue unless you want to add 729 buildings or something else similar way out of proportions.

Hi. I am fairly new to this mode. Can you explain to me please when im in the Teacher List Popup Screen it shows every possible proffesion I can have but every single one says "no teacher". How do I get/assign a teacher? I only know how to drag a colonist into the college slot and he will produce Education and eventually I can select who I want him to become like in the Vanilla but how do I use/get a teacher in WTP mod? I have the newest 2.7.2 version btw just in case

 

[lethiel]

Hi. I am fairly new to this mode. Can you explain to me please when im in the Teacher List Popup Screen it shows every possible proffesion I can have but every single one says "no teacher". How do I get/assign a teacher? I only know how to drag a colonist into the college slot and he will produce Education and eventually I can select who I want him to become like in the Vanilla but how do I use/get a teacher in WTP mod? I have the newest 2.7.2 version btw just in case

You must have a expert in that profession you want to be able to learn inside the settlement for 1 turn or more, while the education building has the required level to train that profosion. For instance if you want to train a blacksmith put a blacksmith inside the settlement for 1 turn after you complete a college. After that the college can produce blacksmiths forever after that and you can remove the original blacksmith from the settlement if you want.

 

[Nikostolpidis]

You must have a expert in that profession you want to be able to learn inside the settlement for 1 turn or more, while the education building has the required level to train that profosion. For instance if you want to train a blacksmith put a blacksmith inside the settlement for 1 turn after you complete a college. After that the college can produce blacksmiths forever after that and you can remove the original blacksmith from the settlement if you want.

Hi. Yes I understand how the vanilla way of teaching colonists works. I was asking about the WTP mod "Teacher List Popup Screen". Here is what I mean
https://imgur.com/a/iYqeg27
Have a College, have expert Ore miner & expert Lumberjack from the start of the game (more than 100 turns). Tab says "no teacher" but there clearly is one present in the colony.

https://imgur.com/a/o0Kkt1Y
This is the vanilla way (dragging the colonist to the college and waiting for him to finish his education) but even so the tab still says "no teacher" for every single possible profession I ever had in this colony. Is it bugged or am I doing something wrong?


P.S

Please don't confuse this as the same question, it is not.
Additional question about Free Colonist. Does the "+10% chance Colonists learn Specialisms by hard work" work as intended? I have Free Colonists on Mining, Farming,Fishing and manufacturing slots and they never ever showed signs of improving or becoming experts. Am I interpreting this correctly or how is this supposed to work? This is for the nations with the Pioneer trait.

 

[lethiel]

Hi. Yes I understand how the vanilla way of teaching colonists works. I was asking about the WTP mod "Teacher List Popup Screen". Here is what I mean
https://imgur.com/a/iYqeg27
Have a College, have expert Ore miner & expert Lumberjack from the start of the game (more than 100 turns). Tab says "no teacher" but there clearly is one present in the colony.

https://imgur.com/a/o0Kkt1Y
This is the vanilla way (dragging the colonist to the college and waiting for him to finish his education) but even so the tab still says "no teacher" for every single possible profession I ever had in this colony. Is it bugged or am I doing something wrong?

If the miner and lumberjack has been in the city for 1 turn then I don't know what is wrong here. Someone else must help you then. It works for me.

Additional question about Free Colonist. Does the "+10% chance Colonists learn Specialisms by hard work" work as intended? I have Free Colonists on Mining, Farming,Fishing and manufacturing slots and they never ever showed signs of improving or becoming experts. Am I interpreting this correctly or how is this supposed to work? This is for the nations with the Pioneer trait.

You should expect 40 -60 turns or more for a school house level profession.