Tech starving a vassal

[Lemon Merchant]

I was reading a post or two today, and I realized that in my games, when I have a vassal that I am leading in technology, I generally limit the amount of tech trading that I do with them.

I usually do this so that they can't trade the techs to the other civs, since I don't bother with the no tech brokering thing. But is this a stupid strategy? Is it more beneficial to have a vassal with tech power and military unit capability more equal to my own?

This might also affect the opportunity for the vassal to reach AC more easily, too. It's a double-edged sword, I suppose...

What do you learned fellows think?

 

[Virtual Alex]

I have never had a vassal have a notable amount of power. I don't use my vassals for anything but demanding resources.

I would say if you don't want them to trade your techs, don't let them have your techs. They will probably help you much less than they will help your angry enemy AI when you give them military tradition.

 

[mariogreymist]

I generally give my vassals the military techs they need to be good fodder, as they will send troops when I go to war. Generally this involves giving them techs they will not be eager to trade, like CS/Machinery or Rifling. Starving them completely of tech runs the danger of making them worthless allies, imo.

Another approach (one I have considered but have yet to try) is to give them every key tech for military production, inlcuding things like steel, AL(once I've completed the pentagon), artillery etc. I have yet to see a vassal try to break away, and i fear too much tech might give them the guts to try. I'd love to hear from someone who's tried this...

 

[Virtual Alex]

I have never had a vassel with more than 3 decent cities left. Usually they have 3 disgusting cities in the tundra and a few laughable specks on islands around the world and on the back ends of other continents.

If you somehow have a vassal who has a working core of decent cities that didn't get captured and re-captured, pillaged, or nuked. Then it might be an okay idea to treat him like a true ally. In this case it would be worth it to maybe gift them back some cities you took, and gift them a sum of gold along with the key military techs so that they may upgrade their longbows to something useful post rifling. Of course I am assuming you got all your vassals from crushing enemies. I have yet to have an AI willingly offer me capitulation without me stomping them first. If you have a fully functional AI that didn't get crushed in a war. Then I would say giving them all your techs is a good plan.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I usually don't gift them techs unless I think they can do something with their military.

However, if they have something of legit value and you can trade for it, forget that they're vassals for a moment and consider it like any other trade. There's no need to tech starve them. If you don't want them winning space, just force them to keep researching non-space techs and they'll never be able to complete the ship, that's a pretty easy way to keep vassals grounded. Same thing for culture -----> keep them away from the mass media line and they don't get any culture wonders. You can also bribe them out of free speech (if you're not in it) to neuter them more.

Obviously vassals won't be winning militarily or via time, and you really shouldn't be getting hosed by vassals in diplo if you plan even remotely.

In other words, with minimal precautions vassals are no threat in any capacity.

 

[6K Man]

I turn off tech brokering - I'll occasionally feed them techs if they are sufficiently advanced, and direct their teching down a route that I'm not taking, for swap purposes later.

But what usually happens is that they turn off research at that point, and head for the cultural win.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I turn off tech brokering - I'll occasionally feed them techs if they are sufficiently advanced, and direct their teching down a route that I'm not taking, for swap purposes later.

But what usually happens is that they turn off research at that point, and head for the cultural win.

Which fails 100% of the time if you keep them out of free speech and they get no modern culture wonders at all .

If you take someone with 3 cities > 20k on normal speed, shame on you . At least capture 1 first.

 

[Adria]

Another approach (one I have considered but have yet to try) is to give them every key tech for military production, inlcuding things like steel, AL(once I've completed the pentagon), artillery etc. I have yet to see a vassal try to break away, and i fear too much tech might give them the guts to try. I'd love to hear from someone who's tried this...

I've done this a couple times in the final push for a domination/conquest victory, usually with a voluntary vassal. I've had a couple vassals that were actually quite helpful, holding the attention of one of the opponents' big stacks of units or even taking a small city or two themselves. The vassals are usually too small to think about breaking free and/or turning on me because they don't have production to match me or even the stronger AI despite having the military techs. Granted I've only just started to attempt Prince, so most of my (limited) experience is on Noble.

In terms of general tech sharing with vassals, I usually share techs. For non-military techs, I don't pass them along until I've done any trading I can/want to do with them. If military techs are passed on, they're not gifted until it's time to go to war. If the vassal is a good techer, I'll often bring them up to speed on one branch of the tech tree right away and have them continue teching that branch for me as I work up a different one. I've never had a vassal break free. As TMIT said, there are simple ways to keep the vassal from becoming a threat.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Some very good points, fellows (and Adria). Thanks.

I usually only take voluntary vassals. I only let another civ capitulate if I'm at a disadvantage somehow, and the continued war is going to cost me dearly in some way. I probably should have mentioned that. IMHO, a voluntary vassal is less likely to try to break free. That fact would tend to skew the reasons for tech trading in favor of doing it with a voluntary vassal, but maybe not with a capped one. Especially with relations at less than pleased.

I really have to step up my diplo game, it seems. I rarely direct a vassal's research line, and there are some other diplo things I have to learn before I can get to Monarch. I'm comfortable with my skill at Prince, but diplo will be a factor as I progress. That much is obvious.

 

[Bushface]

The trouble with accepting capitulation by somebody is that (usually) you have already captured some of his cities and will therafter be plagued with unhappiness in those cities due to citizens "yearning for their native land". To avoid this, go ahead and exterminate the blighter.
Voluntary vassals are much more useful. They'll probably be friendly to you, whereas capitulated ones will be annoyed ot furious.

 

[jauggy]

It doesn't matter if vassals are furious with you. They will still trade as if they were friendly if you have latest patch.

 

[mariogreymist]

Moreover, they won't stay furious with you if you're nice to them. Think of it like training a dog...if you treat it with kindness, it will be a loyal ally. If you kick it every chance you get, it'll be a defeated little runt not worth having around. And if you really are too close to the hilt to build theatres and temples in your captured cities, then sure...the happiness is a problem. Managing the unhappiness is painfully easy, if you pay attention to the population and build orders.

 

[6K Man]

Which fails 100% of the time if you keep them out of free speech and they get no modern culture wonders at all .

If you take someone with 3 cities > 20k on normal speed, shame on you . At least capture 1 first.

Oh yes, I didn't say they ever got there. I'm just saying that most of my vassals are either far behind me techwise, or they shut off research, leaving me with nothing to get from them in trade.

 

[Virtual Alex]

My most recent game, I was on a continent with 8 others civs, and I found (founded?) a religion and spread it everywhere and we had a real huge love fest. Except I had an itchy trigger finger and started DOWing on them 1 at a time. The fun part was my diplo with all of them was something like +10 or +15 and after the war they would capitulate to me and once the -8 "this war spoils our friendship" they went right back to pleased with a minor "you declared war on us" but all the +8 "we have the same faith" came back so we are all happy vassals together.

It was great.

 

[GenerallyGreat]

I'll take vassals because they have techs I want and because I'm about to declare war on everyone else anyway so I give them up to date military techs and have them attack a heavily fortified enemy city while I wait behind their culture and heal.

 

[bestbrian]

I'll sell/gift military techs to make them less pathetic, and perhaps a little useful, but I never see a need to do much more than that. If I conquered them, the only reason they're still alive is because their last city or two are scattered about on one-tile islands all over the map (yes, Hannibal, I'm looking at you) and just not worth the effort. If I accepted a voluntary vassal, it was only because I'm eyeing taking down someone bigger and stronger. Either way, it's usually not in my interest to do much more than allow them to be a generation behind me in military tech.

 

[Kullervo]

I don't really see anything different in tech-trading with vassals as opposed to tech-trading with other nations... the only precaution I take is to shop around first. Divine Right is one of the better techs to sell... first of all, if you streamline it, you found Islam, and having your own religion is, to say the least, nice. Second, it takes some time to research, and so you can easily sell it to EVERY other nation in the world. Once, on a 12 civs map, I sold Divine right to 8 of them, bringing in 7 smaller techs (Drama, Lit, Currency, and others), almost 5000 gold (Ashoka founded 3 religions and had the shrines for all of them, so he was REALLY bringing in the gold), and a world map which helped me get circumnavigation. It wouldn't matter if they were my vassals or enemies, I would sell it to them for a good deal. The only difference I would make is, if they were my friend, I'd sell it to them for Drama, Lit, and a world map, as opposed to Drama, Lit, a world map, and 30 gold.

But I always sell my techs during the span of one turn, otherwise my friend will turn around and sell it to someone else and reap the rewards.

 

[samthedagger]

I don't give my vassals techs for military uses, although I do give them techs for building their economy, which I can leech off of. "Tribute time! Refusal means WAR!" To bolster my vassals' army, I gift them advanced units. Usually just defensive units thought.

 

[echosfolly]

I usually treat vassels well, tech wise,giving them what ever they need, I have had them go to war with me and somtimes they actually take a few cities for me. However, if I happen to have a massive army, I wont accept them as vassels in the first place,and eliminate them at my convenience.

 

[GenerallyGreat]

Giving a decent sized vassal military techs can make enough power difference to get your next victim to cap when they otherwise wouldn't.