Tech trading vs No tech trading

[feelfreetodie]

I am playing civ4 vanilla 1.74, most of my games I play with no tech trading allowed. Im playing @ monarch level, mostly continents map, standard size and epic.

My problem with tech trading is that:

1)AI will not trade with me, this comes from poor relations due to diff religion, close borders, not gifting them, declaring war on their friends, etc.
2)AI will trade with each other most of the time, end up with all the AI's with all the same techs
3)When I have a tech lead AI wont trade because I am too advanced
4)You always have to take a loss when trading, then 2 turns later, the rest of the AI's have that tech, but they would not trade you for it cause of poor relations.

Going through the posts it seems most players play with tech trading allowed, is this necessary? At what level does tech trading become a must?

Most people here play BTS, which to me is a diff game in the sense that you have alot more info on the AI, be it from mods or thats just how the game is, I have never tried any of the expansions or mods. Because of this difference, does it have any weight in making your decision to play with tech trading?

 

[Onionsoilder]

No Tech Trading gives a huuuugggeeee penalty to the AI. It's not because the AIs circulate techs between themselves, but rather, the AI doesn't understand how to tech properly, and if they can't trade for techs they will lack ones that are vital to their economy and military because their personality doesn't see those techs as important, even though every human player will grab them ASAP, or at the very least within a reasonable timeframe.

With poor relations, that is just something you have to work on. It can be frustrating, but there are many things you can do get get the AI to like you more - primarily this includes adopting the dominant religion. Yes, it is nice to have your own religion, but what many players don't realize is that they can found one religion and build the shrine, but use a different, more popular state religion and reap the benefits of both.

For the "AI Circle" trade, you just have to trade them first. When you trade a tech to somebody, trade it to everybody, unless somebody is a common enemy of everyone(like Monty often is; you can exclude him). Even if the AI only gives you 500 gold for a 3000 beaker tech, it's better than getting 0 gold and having another AI profit. Remember; the only thing you lose when you trade a tech is the exclusivity of building those units and wonders before the other players. Once a single other player has the tech, that is out the window.

The AI doesn't not trade when you have too many techs. "We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced" actually means that you have been trading too many techs. To limit this, try getting techs from only a few close trading partners(you can give techs to whoever you want).

Finally, it's OK to take a loss in a trade. The AI is stupid. Having every trade profit for them is one of the few ways they can manage to keep up with the player. Just smile and make the deal, knowing you'll be stomping all over them at one point or another.

 

[feelfreetodie]

With poor relations, that is just something you have to work on. It can be frustrating, but there are many things you can do get get the AI to like you more - primarily this includes adopting the dominant religion. Yes, it is nice to have your own religion, but what many players don't realize is that they can found one religion and build the shrine, but use a different, more popular state religion and reap the benefits of both.



The problem I have with religion is that it rarely spreads to me, let alone the dominant religion. I get open borders with most but it usually never spreads to me. I went 1 game where the year was 1000 AD and still no religion spread to me. With open borders and roads built to other AI's, what else is there early in the game? The only guarantee to get a religion is to conquer a city that already has one.

 

[joanne]

Tech trading is essential for the human player on higher levels (EMP+ in my experience) to keep up with the AI's many bonuses (which were included to compensate for its relative stupidity, as Onionsoilder points out.) Tech trading and tech brokering basically multiplies the beaker value of the techs you trade around, meaning you get more beakers with the techs you receive for the amount of beakers you put in the techs that you researched for the purpose of trading, which explains why games with tech trading enabled generally have faster tech paces than otherwise.

However you still have to be careful about trading though, Ideally you want to trade with those AI's at the bottom of the scoreboard and not with those on top as that could take them further ahead, and you have to think strategically e.g. you wouldn't want to trade away literature if you're pursuing the Great Library, or Education if you're racing to liberalism, or trading a big economic tech like currency or code of laws to someone with lots of cities, or giving a big military tech or prerequisite to your future target.

Adopting a religion provides a great boost to relations which often bumps them to at least pleased with you, with just the "we care for brothers and sisters" diplo merit alone. However I disagree with Onionsoilder's suggestion of adopting the dominant religion, in most cases you're usually much better off adopting the religion of your neighbor(s) because they're more likely to declare on you if you share a land border and by adopting their religion you reduce their chances of DoWing on you for this reason and makes them hate the heathens more than you, perhaps even cancelling open borders with them making you virtually safe from them.

If the diplo situation doesn't allow for this e.g. you're sandwiched between 2 big AIs with different religion you can always look to other sources of diplo merits to keep them happy with you or at least make them more unhappy with someone else, like open borders, favorite civics, gifting them techs/cities, resource trades, phony wars, etc.

Lastly, don't be afraid to accept lopsided trades or giving in to AI demands. Getting something less than full value for a trade is still better than getting nothing at all(like selling older techs for gold), and they boost relations with the freeloading AI("our trade relations have been fair and forthright" - ya rite )

 

[Sisiutil]

To follow up on what Joanne said regarding religion and diplomacy, try to adopt the religion of whatever Civ or Civs you want to be friends with. This may not be the dominant religion, and it may not be the religion of your closest neighbours, either.

The main X factor here is if you have the opportunity or inclination to go to war. Ideally you want to adopt the religion of the other civs with whom you share borders, or at least have contact, so that they'll leave you alone to carve up the heathen and won't assign you diplomatic demerits for it.

If you're playing as Rome, for example, and plan on conquering your continent, you'd want to convert to the religion of a faraway leader or change civics to Free Religion as soon as possible--this way you have a friend or friends in a faraway land with whom you can trade for resources and techs while you beat up on everyone close by.

As for getting religions to your cities, there are two ways this happens: automatically through trade routes, or intentionally by having the AI send missionaries to you. So yes, maintaining Open Borders and trade routes with other civs is important. In addition, if you're trying to attract a religion, don't run Theocracy, or run it as little as possible, since it prevents any non-State Religion from spreading to any of your cities. Other than that, I play BtS with the Better BUG AI mod--it could be that the much-improved AI is more intent on spreading its religion in the expansion pack and mod I use.

Without a common religion, remember that there are still other ways to increase your diplomatic score with the AI. Guess what: tech trading is one of those methods, particularly when you give the AI the better part of the deal, which you've been complaining about. Doing this results in "Our trade relations have been fair and forthright" bonuses, up to a maximum of +4. Another big way to score points with the AI is to fight alongside them in a war or to run their favourite civic (provided they're running it too); the longer you do either, the bigger the bonus. You also get a bonus for joining them in either of those when they ask you to. Maintaining Open Borders, Defensive Pacts, and resource trades for long periods also give you diplomatic points, each to a maximum of +2, and you get +1 for giving them gifts or tribute when they ask--not many points at first glance, but they can add up quickly. Also avoid scoring negative points when possible; don't trade with your friends' worst enemies, don't turn down their requests, don't declare war on them or their friends, etc.

 

[Bluebags]

I've actually been playing with "no tech brokering" enabled recently (a leftover from my recent games of FfH2 I believe). The main reason I keep it on is because I'm sick of the AI begging for techs on their own turn, with the choice being to either take a diplomatic penalty or let them take my monopoly on the tech and make a massive profit out of it.

I don't tend to find it slows the AI's tech pace down much (maybe just a little bit, but I still find it too fast anyway) as they can still trade around techs they research themselves. In the end it basically creates the mantra of "hard work equals rewards", where only those who research a particular tech will profit from it.

I wouldn't mind if there was some sort of option where after waiting X amount of turns a player could then trade a tech they hadn't researched. If it was say, 1 turn for every 5% off completion, then I think it'd be a fair balance between protecting those who actually research techs and not abusing the system by trading an AI a tech the turn before they get it (which I avoid anyway).

 

[revengeofmakno]

I've actually been playing with "no tech brokering" enabled recently (a leftover from my recent games of FfH2 I believe). The main reason I keep it on is because I'm sick of the AI begging for techs on their own turn, with the choice being to either take a diplomatic penalty or let them take my monopoly on the tech and make a massive profit out of it.
(which I avoid anyway).

I've also done no-tech-brokering a few times for similar reasons. Without it, if you have just researched a new tech then you don't dare trade it on an AI's turn as that will likely be the only decent trade you make with it. The other AIs of significance will all have it before your turn comes around.
However, no-tech-brokering does make the game easier to win, not as easy as no-tech- trading but easier than free tech trading, and sometimes one is looking for a tougher challenge.

 

[babar]

I only recently started playing with "no tech brokering" too, but it feels a lot less artificial and annoying, and allows more freedom with research and tech trades. I will never go back to "tech brokering". I don't care if "NTB" is slightly easier, as I don't win all the time on immortal anyway. I might consider turning it on again when deity becomes too easy...