Tech Tree Discussion

[Thunderbrd]

The rule of thumb for Techs is that they should have at least 3 buildings.

My only complaints:
Gathering came before Nomadic Lifestyle.


Clothing; it was Leaf/Twigs , Then Bark, then Animal Skins, then Furs/Pelts combo, then Feather/Leather combo .

Not all techs should have 3 buildings... at all. Please addend this considered rule of thumb to 'unlock at least 3 meaningful game objects/effects' rather than simply buildings. Techs certainly become more complex later but stretching for 3 buildings each is a bit much for many of them.

I know. But I pointed, that gathering and scavenging can have some reason in the tree tech, if we interpret them as advanced forms those. As Dancing Hoskuld and UncivilizedGuy pointed, they are hard to defend as the most primitive forms, because the most primitive forms were known even to apes or actually even insects.

Moreover, the advanced forms, like accumulation over take-and-eat, allowed development, as older individuals could stay in camps and thus had time for thinking. So IMO they indeed can deserve a place in tree tech.

However, inspired by the discussion, I actually check some materials about human evolution and it appears, the prehistoric tech tree firmly miss the history. - Not only about those above. - Actually stone tools making goes far before Homo Sapience. It seems, it can even go before Home species. As well as tracking, hunting, sinning, early fire control, cave dwelling. Moreover, cave dwelling was pretty rare and insignificant as a way of living. Caves, if they were used, were rather considered "specially" places. So generally, they were not connected to the shelters building. Everything of this went greatly before the language. Sinning went greatly before weaving. Herbalism was much younger, and went after this everything. ... and probably more, but I don't have time to read this everything.

Oh my, what a mess.

If we wanted to get this accurate we'd have to date the game back to pre-homo sapien. I've often thought perhaps we should try it - Johny Smith was a proponent of that sort of accuracy too.

But as I said elsewhere, by all means if someone wishes to champion this movement, make it a modmod so it can be well tested before any changes are implemented. This is because we have a truly beautiful strategic balance in our current Prehistoric tech tree and I don't want to see it messed with without the changes being equally tested and found to be truly superior from BOTH an accuracy AND gameplay basis. Because the gameplay factor is just excellent at the beginning right now - we hit a sweet spot and I don't want to see it so quickly cast aside.

And it seems a bit strange to think of ancient man 'sinning a rabbit'. The immediate question becomes, did he at least have the courtesy of killing the poor little guy first?

 

[n47]

And it seems a bit strange to think of ancient man 'sinning a rabbit'. The immediate question becomes, did he at least have the courtesy of killing the poor little guy first?

I almost cried. I am afraid of even thinking, what 'sinning a rabbit' can actually mean.
... ...
Noooo! I can't read it any more! I will cry!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Hey I added a bunch of new techs from you and Johny Smith when you wanted to redo stuff like having Hard Hammer Percussion, Soft Hammer Percussion and stuff.

You added all those techs because I wanted to go off and examine a mod mod that better fit the period and you wanted us to concentrate on one mod. Well I am still going to have to do the experimentation anyway.

I was annoyed from the beginning as some were strictly unreasonable. For example, caves are rare, especially on savannas which were our primary home, but somehow people there also built shelters. Don't know, from where it came from, but that the first people were cavemen is just some pop culture bullsh*t.

Apes have sleeping platforms and birds have nests. In the rain gorillas and chimps will hold large leaves over their heads to keep the rain off for comfort. Sounds like the precursors to shelter to me.

But seriously, do you see anything reasonable, which stands against redoing tech tree to a more correct form? Except time of course.

I will be working on this in my modmods I have been talking about. However I will only be looking at changes to the tree that are necessary for the mod to work.

 

[Azurian]

You guys should read the human genomics and haplogroups section on Wikipedia lol.

The word Caveman came from the 1960? When the Flintstones and "human and dinosaurs action figures" along with cowboys TV shows were the rage. There's a famous photograph of an actress in a cave woman outfit that was a sex symbol. The poster was in the movie Shanshank Redemption. The correct term is anatomicaly modern human.


Is Language; verbal common speech or body language?

 

[intlidave]

Is Language; verbal common speech or body language?

Since the "no language" civic's description is "Your civ communicates with grunts and gestures", I'd say it's a spoken verbal language.

 

[Azurian]

Since the "no language" civic's description is "Your civ communicates with grunts and gestures", I'd say it's a spoken verbal language.

Oh I see. I wonder why we don't have Language Families that would be similiar to miniCultures. The more language families you collect the more trade you get in your city. This would also enable Literature World Wonders.

Only one culture can unlock one Language Family BUT you gain , , and if other cultures use it.

We could have Translator require BONUS_LATIN to be able to create The Republic by Plato and BONUS_ARABIC to create The Canon of Medicine by Avicenna.

We could also have a Great Philosopher that can fits with philosophical and literal works.


I am so crazy, i belong to an asylum.

 

[n47]

@MrAzure, but maybe we should adjust great peoples with the time line? And maybe with cultures? Ancient Newton and industrial Marco Polo somehow disturbs me.

 

[Azurian]

@MrAzure, but maybe we should adjust great peoples with the time line? And maybe with cultures? Ancient Newton and industrial Marco Polo somehow disturbs me.

Can you explain what you mean with cultures?

 

[n47]

No no, it is nothing serious. Just to assign the major cultures (European, Asian, etc.) to great people, so a specific great person would appear only in a city with the assigned culture.

Yeah, there can be a problem, as some cultures, like Native American, may have a set of historically known great people nearly empty. But well, I guess modders can use some creativity here.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There is a civ specific great people mod. It could be used as the basis for a culture one.

 

[n47]

There is a civ specific great people mod. It could be used as the basis for a culture one.

Probably database of great people and their civilizations would be good starting point. But not sure should we put their c++ code here. Merging mods cause bigger and bigger mess in the code and it is easy to write this code from the scratch. Or write a "frame" for it and copy-past the rest.

It should be easy thing, especially, if there is ready code, which can be used as a cheat sheet. I think, if there is someone with medium c++ skills, he could be able to do it. Or I can take care about it, but not before the next week.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Probably database of great people and their civilizations would be good starting point. But not sure should we put their c++ code here. Merging mods cause bigger and bigger mess in the code and it is easy to write this code from the scratch. Or write a "frame" for it and copy-past the rest.

It should be easy thing, especially, if there is ready code, which can be used as a cheat sheet. I think, if there is someone with medium c++ skills, he could be able to do it. Or I can take care about it, but not before the next week.

It is done in python and replaces the names in the XML. There is also one that adds era to the mix. To do it in a more generic way we would have to add era and culture to the names we already have.

 

[n47]

But isn't it some hack? I thought things like great people boning are controlled by dll and python is only for the interface management.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The names of the great people are in the XML. The next one in the list is the one chosen for a new great person. IE a simple list or counter is all that is needed for each great person.

If you want great people by culture or era then you will have to do a hack anyway. Unless that is you change the current name entry to include name, culture and era and then you change the dll to keep track of all the different cultural/era lists to ensure you use the next available one.

The great person name is also the name of the image file to load into the pop-up displayed when one is born; which is why translating the names often means getting a default image instead of the correct one.

 

[n47]

The names of the great people are in the XML. The next one in the list is the one chosen for a new great person. IE a simple list or counter is all that is needed for each great person.

If you want great people by culture or era then you will have to do a hack anyway. Unless that is you change the current name entry to include name, culture and era and then you change the dll to keep track of all the different cultural/era lists to ensure you use the next available one.

The great person name is also the name of the image file to load into the pop-up displayed when one is born; which is why translating the names often means getting a default image instead of the correct one.

Oh my. Great people are stored only as names. That is not good for our purpose. We shall add a new xml file for great people. As they are managed differently then other units, so I think, it is rather justified.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Oh my. Great people are stored only as names. That is not good for our purpose. We shall add a new xml file for great people. As they are managed differently then other units, so I think, it is rather justified.

Great People are just units. Every unit has the possibility of having a list of unique names to go with it. Mostly this is not useful for unlimited units since the name list is hard coded in the XML. That is why there is a python mod that names units after the city they are built in and a number. I turn that option off as almost all my units are built in the one city.

 

[Sparth]

In Realism Invictus mod Great People are different in each civilization but they dont appear in right era (Luis Amstrong can be "produced" in ancient era and Andy Warhol in medieval).

Still Andy Warhol cannot born in Japan, and Musashi Miyamoto in USA.
Plus most of them have small biographical note which give much immersion to the game

As for the civs without great pepole (for example Paleo Indians) we can use our imagination. We have mammoths cannons why dont we got Paleo-Einstein

 

[Pepo]

And what is the problem of having people of other civs in your civ? As far as i know c2c isn't a realism mod

 

[Sparth]

And what is the problem of having people of other civs in your civ? As far as i know c2c isn't a realism mod

Civ isnt realism game but some people like immersion in game. C2C team include many realism elements in past and dont know why civ specific GP cant be included too.

 

[n47]

Great People are just units. Every unit has the possibility of having a list of unique names to go with it. Mostly this is not useful for unlimited units since the name list is hard coded in the XML. That is why there is a python mod that names units after the city they are built in and a number. I turn that option off as almost all my units are built in the one city.

Thank you for explanations.
I think there should be a separated xml file like

<GreatPeople>
    <GreatScientist>
        <Name>Albert Einstein</Name>
        <Era>Industrial</Era>
        <Era>Modern</Era>
        <Culture>European</Culture>
        maybe?
        <TechReq>Physics</TechReq>
    </GreatScientist>
    <GreatProphet>
        <Name>Muhammad</Name>
        <Era>Classical</Era>
        <Era>Medieval</Era>
        <Culture>Middle Eastern</Culture>
        maybe?
        <TechReq>Islam</TechReq>
    </GreatProphet>
    <GreatArtist>
        <Name>Guo Xi</Name>
        <Era>Medieval</Era>
        <Era>Renaissance</Era>
        <Culture>Asian</Culture>
        maybe?
        <TechReq>Painting</TechReq>
    </GreatArtist>
    ...
</GreatPeople>

"Maybes" will somehow impact balance, but can be interesting.