Tech tree in Civ VII

[Lazy sweeper]

How would you imagine Civ VII tech tree?
I was just watching a yt HK play, and I find it ridiculous that it's possible to see fusion reactor tech whilst still in industrial era.

CIV VII Tech tree should have a sort of fog of war, locking the view to one's era.
Research could dispel some tech fog of war (more appropriate name needed) and reveal certain techs for the era that than could be studied.
So I would imagine a cultural division of citizens, with philosophers alike, that would produce a civ culture, and that could be spent to disperse the fog of techs.
Scientist, scribes, mathematicians, etc, would then produce science, that could be invested in learning techs.
Sharing books, papyrus, maybe even discovering them by sending trade expeditions or exploring, could help boost some techs, and precisely that would come with the papyrus subject.

New mechanic: Important books and papyruses to add alike great leaders (...)
We know that untill book press invention, books were extremely rare, however, AFTER the press, invention spread because of books...
In early times, romans and greeks produced an enormous amount of technical books, Egypt , Babylon, India and China also. Be it in Papyrus, tablets, or oral tradition still ( Inca Warehouses , bridge making, agriculture). Oral tradition would produce Hymns , music and poems, with a similar value to a book, however, scribe wont' work fro preservation, instead Alphabetism is important... under a certain global percantage some Hymns could be lost, and under a certain threshold, new oral copies could not be produced...

Books and Papyrus can boost a civ culture but must be mantained, transcribed, protected from worms, fires.
If lost, a civ culture would dwindle. If a Masonry roman book would be lost, a whole set of techs could go dark...
Transcription would be essential in mantaining knowledge through time. And without book trading (I would never trade the only copy, but could produce copies)
Fog dispersal should be slow, and with scrambled results, always....

The name of these books could be real or ficticious (Roman De Nature is known to have some herb formulae, but not mortar composition)
But a complete list would be essential to produce with respect to various branch of tech.

Mathematic
Astronomy
Philosophy
Agriculture
Medicine
Language (Alphabetism to play an important role in cultural production, a dynamic nature)

but also could be

Sea science
Earth science
Wood science
Fire science
Metal science

bringing same results but with an eastern approach....

 

[Evie]

The tech fog of war would be meaningless without a tech randomizer (aka the optional game mode added in NFP). Because otherwise people don't need to see the tech to know what leads where - all they need is to know someone who already played the game through once,and who took a dew screenshot or who wrote down the tech tree.

At that point, the tech FOW stop having any actual gameplay effect and just becomes an annoying inconvenience.

So for it to mean anything, you need a tech randomizer that change the tech tree anew for each game. Which might be an interesting option, but does not work at all for some ways civ plays game, so would have to remain an optional game mode.

Which is exactly what random tech mode already does in Civ VI

 

[rocksinmypath]

I really dislike tech tree randomization. The Future era tech randomization that currently exists does nothing to enhance gameplay. It just adds to the end-game slog and drags the game on when I'm aiming for science victory, which is boring because it's so linear. I suppose one motivation for tech tree randomization is that you can't just rush certain techs every game, and that should make things more interesting, but the reality is, with science victory, whatever the tech tree looks like, your goal is to just run up the tech tree as fast as possible and maximize production in a few cities.

What I would like to see in Civ 7, not just regarding the tech tree, is a more detailed reflection of the player's past actions in tangible outcomes. Currently, your technological progress is more or less just a summary of how much science you've generated throughout the game. I know they added the boost system to make player actions beyond science generation matter more, and it does make a material difference in terms of how many turns you'll need to complete the game, but it doesn't really affect how you win the game all that much. I think part of the solution is to get rid of victory conditions, but I think the tech tree itself could be improved to help with it.

A solution I have in mind involves treating certain tech nodes as gateways to things that can be accessed, not by spending science, but by conscious, directed efforts by the player. Unlocking certain techs will unlock new "disciplines". Each discipline will come with a sub-tree, whose nodes can be unlocked with science points specific to that discipline. You'll need to assign buildings like universities and research labs to generate discipline-specific points, instead of generic science points. For example, unlocking the Computers tech will allow you to establish the discipline of computer science and give you the opportunity to work on techs like Internet, Cloud Computing, and AI. To unlock Internet, you'll have to assign a university or research lab to produce computer science points.

This is different from the idea of turning the tech tree into a big web that I've seen other people suggest, because there's a natural way of hiding away sub-tree techs from the main tree, since they consume different yields. I quite like how simple both the tech and civic trees are in Civ 6, which is especially beneficial for new players. In fact, this approach should further simplify the current tech tree, allowing it to merge with the civic tree without becoming hopelessly convoluted. With regards to civics and policies, I said this in a different thread, but I'd like to see policy cards also reflect player actions better (beyond just how much culture they're generating) by introducing an XP system. The idea is to allow players to create powerful policy cards by levelling them up. Policy cards will gain experience when they're in effect, and they can progress faster if the player fulfills certain "promises" to the population, that come with the policies. The base policy cards will be accessible by unlocking techs, and additional perks can be unlocked by levelling the cards up, resulting in a much smaller set of cards. This will allow players to be more invested in policies and eliminate the need for the constant jumping around in the civic tree for the purpose of timing policy switches.

Another small benefit to reworking the tech tree this way is that it gives more flavour to different buildings. Currently, there's no real difference between a university and a research lab other than how much science each generates. In this framework, a research lab will not be able to generate any generic science points, but instead it can only generate points toward one particular discipline. A university, on the other hand, will be more flexible, and can house up to, say, three disciplines. If all its discipline slots are empty, the university will generate generic science only. If one slot is filled, a third of the science points will be converted to discipline points.

 

[Lazy sweeper]

I really dislike tech tree randomization. The Future era tech randomization that currently exists does nothing to enhance gameplay. It just adds to the end-game slog and drags the game on when I'm aiming for science victory, which is boring because it's so linear. I suppose one motivation for tech tree randomization is that you can't just rush certain techs every game, and that should make things more interesting, but the reality is, with science victory, whatever the tech tree looks like, your goal is to just run up the tech tree as fast as possible and maximize production in a few cities.

What I would like to see in Civ 7, not just regarding the tech tree, is a more detailed reflection of the player's past actions in tangible outcomes. Currently, your technological progress is more or less just a summary of how much science you've generated throughout the game. I know they added the boost system to make player actions beyond science generation matter more, and it does make a material difference in terms of how many turns you'll need to complete the game, but it doesn't really affect how you win the game all that much. I think part of the solution is to get rid of victory conditions, but I think the tech tree itself could be improved to help with it.

A solution I have in mind involves treating certain tech nodes as gateways to things that can be accessed, not by spending science, but by conscious, directed efforts by the player. Unlocking certain techs will unlock new "disciplines". Each discipline will come with a sub-tree, whose nodes can be unlocked with science points specific to that discipline. You'll need to assign buildings like universities and research labs to generate discipline-specific points, instead of generic science points. For example, unlocking the Computers tech will allow you to establish the discipline of computer science and give you the opportunity to work on techs like Internet, Cloud Computing, and AI. To unlock Internet, you'll have to assign a university or research lab to produce computer science points.

This is different from the idea of turning the tech tree into a big web that I've seen other people suggest, because there's a natural way of hiding away sub-tree techs from the main tree, since they consume different yields. I quite like how simple both the tech and civic trees are in Civ 6, which is especially beneficial for new players. In fact, this approach should further simplify the current tech tree, allowing it to merge with the civic tree without becoming hopelessly convoluted. With regards to civics and policies, I said this in a different thread, but I'd like to see policy cards also reflect player actions better (beyond just how much culture they're generating) by introducing an XP system. The idea is to allow players to create powerful policy cards by levelling them up. Policy cards will gain experience when they're in effect, and they can progress faster if the player fulfills certain "promises" to the population, that come with the policies. The base policy cards will be accessible by unlocking techs, and additional perks can be unlocked by levelling the cards up, resulting in a much smaller set of cards. This will allow players to be more invested in policies and eliminate the need for the constant jumping around in the civic tree for the purpose of timing policy switches.

Another small benefit to reworking the tech tree this way is that it gives more flavour to different buildings. Currently, there's no real difference between a university and a research lab other than how much science each generates. In this framework, a research lab will not be able to generate any generic science points, but instead it can only generate points toward one particular discipline. A university, on the other hand, will be more flexible, and can house up to, say, three disciplines. If all its discipline slots are empty, the university will generate generic science only. If one slot is filled, a third of the science points will be converted to discipline points.

Yes, I think this is somehow my view also.

I try to make an actual example.
Oral tradition can unlock all ancient techs, but not Astronomy, or Philosophy for example. Any civ need to develop an ancient university to watch the sky, or a stone circle. For Philosophy an amphitheater, or something else for non-mediterranean civs I'm not sure exactly which. Later computer science needs a lab and so on.

The tech fog, and the tech randomizer, are complementary. Once you need a certain building type to unlock a tech tree, you will be able to see the entire tree. But it will not be possible for example to go directly to Nuclear fusion, or jump through ages, to try rush to that tech. That kind of shortcut should not be possible.


I like also the idea of cards with XP system. A strong Oral tradition policy could help overcome the lacks of librairies or even a writing system, and make possible, the technological and society advance for certain cultures, like the Inca for example, that really obliterates any other world civs with their powerful food storage system, warehouses, terra preta. Brasil today is unable to replicate the agricultural might of those people living in the Amazon jungle... this also get in the view of new natural victory conditions... a happy society, a healthy society, even if not a world dominator superpower, should get its share.

Cultural victory condition is actually very underdeveloped and biased towards ability to build the most cultural buildings possible, when in reality, happiness is just as much important.

 

[dagriggstar]

I basically want more technologies like "halberd - increased combat against mounted units by +20%" and less "each technology progresses you through the ages". Behave more like Social Policies from civ 5. Lots of choices, you won't research all of them.

 

[Lazy sweeper]

I basically want more technologies like "halberd - increased combat against mounted units by +20%" and less "each technology progresses you through the ages". Behave more like Social Policies from civ 5. Lots of choices, you won't research all of them.

I had an idea regarding tech-culture, xp cards, and governors and heroes...
What if some units, once victorious whilst full xp 'the old way' when it would generate a general, instead, it would become a super-unit.
A Hero like unit-general, with a unique perk.
I can imagine the Great Quetzal Jaguar-Feathered-serpent Warrior of Tenochtitlan battle against the conquistadores... a real hero, not an 'imaginary' Yui archer of the ten suns Chinese legend... (Not that Sun Goku wasn't a real person... aAhhh china....

Your increased Halberd could well be a hero perk that could be Orally transmitted through ages, by a mighty Spearman... or Axeman... Beowulf??

Sounds cool... not anymore near invincible, but mortal units.....

 

[Naokaukodem]

I think there needs to be more dead end techs, especially militaristic ones. That way, you could choose to research an advanced unit of your age, or ignore it if you don't need it now.

 

[DeckerdJames]

Maybe I would approach the tech tree by first creating a tree for each school of science. For example, thermodynamics and signals science are different schools. I hope “school” is an acceptable word for this idea.

Ancient technologies might sometimes fit into the same school as modern technology. For example, the alphabet and radio signals might both be in a tree related to communication (but signals have many applications so not sure if that is totally correct but the idea is to create the categories).Then I would figure out the whole communication tree. Once I made the individual trees, then I would determine where the trees depend on each other. To make broadcast television, they needed to understand signals and electricity.

Television might be a prerequisite for certain government related ideas, like mass propaganda projects.

It would be very complicated, no doubt.

 

[AffineConstant]

Tech trees should be different each game, both for policies and tech. And! And they should be at least somewhat logical, this leads to this leads to this, and you the player should be able to see a few techs ahead in the tree. In order to make it interesting you need to know where it is you can go, options are only options if you have an idea of what you're even choosing. Not all the way ahead, not the entire tree. But like revealing the fog of war on the map you'd be looking at a fog of war on the tree. You can go here 2 levels down, or you can go here, and you have an idea of what those two options lead too further down the line but you can't be exactly sure.

This leads to games where trees are more strategic, and involve discovery each and every time. They suddenly become as interesting as terrain. If we had the same map each game we'd find it boring and bizarre. But randomized maps are so obvious its just an assumed part of the game. Tech trees have the opportunity to be the same thing, if they're implemented well. The current implementation isn't great by any means, but a future one could be.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Maybe I would approach the tech tree by first creating a tree for each school of science. For example, thermodynamics and signals science are different schools. I hope “school” is an acceptable word for this idea.

Ancient technologies might sometimes fit into the same school as modern technology. For example, the alphabet and radio signals might both be in a tree related to communication (but signals have many applications so not sure if that is totally correct but the idea is to create the categories).Then I would figure out the whole communication tree. Once I made the individual trees, then I would determine where the trees depend on each other. To make broadcast television, they needed to understand signals and electricity.

Television might be a prerequisite for certain government related ideas, like mass propaganda projects.

It would be very complicated, no doubt.

That's how I would like to handle a separate civics tree, at least.

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

a tech tree subdivided by:
1. units
2. buildings
3. tile improvements
4. cultural influence

 

[Naokaukodem]

a tech tree subdivided by:
1. units
2. buildings
3. tile improvements
4. cultural influence

No lol, would be boring lol

 

[DeckerdJames]

a tech tree subdivided by:
1. units
2. buildings
3. tile improvements
4. cultural influence

What would be the categories of research for something like this? Building would be construction technology? In Civ 6, you can build elaborate wonders very quickly, but you don't get something like "construction" until much later. So, in this sort of organizational approach, you would first have to learn concrete before you can build wonders out of concrete. Do you mean something along those lines?

 

[civilizationfanatic2000]

i want tech to act more like it does in the real world. you would only be able to research technology if you have a Want and a Need for it. If you have no Horses, you cannot research Horseback Riding, it'll be grayed out. Technologies would also automatically spread across the map once invented: either by other civilizations or by barbarians. If the technology spreads to you, you automatically get it. This would help players that lag behind to catch up.

I also want technology to be purely physical- 'Polytheism' should just be a Civic, while 'Heavy Plow' or 'Writing' should be a full technology. There should also be alternate versions of some technologies: for instance, if you invent an abjad, an alphabet, or a logographic script when you discover Writing.