Tech Tree Revisions

[Vokarya]

Revealing resources should be counted as another tick, as they are significant for future city planning. Granted that sheep and silk aren't key resources, but it means the difference between having a newly founded city being able to use them once the tech arrives to having to build a new city if you want to exploit them. As for weaver I agree, make it no requirement building but make it give 1 gold, that is less useful than commerce. It should be a cheap low benefit building

I started counting health and happiness resources as 1/2 a trick each so as not to overinflate the trick counts of certain techs that reveal several resources at once, especially if the resource isn't actually available for use immediately when revealed. Plus, health and happiness resources can also fall into redundancy if you have enough health or happiness from other sources. Strategic resources count as a full trick since those are far more important and very often there isn't an alternative.

 

[Vokarya]

My only problem with Slingers is that it's too close to Archers.
In Chronicles I'm considering to move Archers up the tech tree closer to Warfare further from and further from Weaving but my ancient era has far more techs.

I think we're doing the best we can without either splitting Archers off from Archery or pushing Archery too far forward on the tech tree. If you have more columns, then yes, you can put some more distance between Slinger and Archer.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

My only input is that column 2 is crowded.

 

[<Nexus>]

I think we're doing the best we can without either splitting Archers off from Archery or pushing Archery too far forward on the tech tree. If you have more columns, then yes, you can put some more distance between Slinger and Archer.

An other option could be that Slinger doesn't upgrade to Archer only to Longbowman. Than it should be better than Archer in some areas like having a higher chance for archer bombardment.

 

[Vokarya]

An other option could be that Slinger doesn't upgrade to Archer only to Longbowman. Than it should be better than Archer in some areas like having a higher chance for archer bombardment.

I think if you did there would be problems:

• If Slinger's strength doesn't increase, it becomes an obsolete unit cluttering up the build list. I don't think having a really efficient bombard unit is a good idea this early.
  
• If Slinger's strength does increase, then it may become too efficient. It also messes up power level calculations. <iPower> is a separate variable and I've been setting it at (unit strength) ^ 1.3, but iPower can't change with unit strength increases unless we did more DLL work.

 

[Vokarya]

I think this is what I am going to do with Weaving.

Weaving's prerequisites change to Agriculture OR Animal Husbandry.

Weaving allows:

• Weaver with no resource requirement.
  
• Tailor with Aesthetics. (Weaving is not on Aesthetics' direct tech path.)
  
• Reveals Sheep, Silk (unchanged); Cotton (taken from Agriculture); Dye (currently revealed at game start).
• This adds up to 3.5 tricks (5.5 if you count resource reveals as full).

Placement:
Column 2 would be crowded with 9 techs. I plan to move everything in column 3 and up forward one column. Then spread the now 9-tech column 2 across columns 2 and 3.

• Herbalism, Mysticism, Slavery, Stargazing, and Weaving stay in column 2.
• Animal Husbandry, Mining, The Wheel, and Woodworking move to column 3.
• Then recost techs:
  • Column 1 stays at 30.
  • Column 2 techs decrease from 50 to 45.
  • Column 3 techs increase from 50 to 60.
  • Column 4 techs (formerly 3) increase from 70 to 75.
  • Column 5 techs (formerly 4) stay at 90.
  • Column 6 techs (formerly 5) decrease from 110 to 105.
  • This increases the average cost of an Ancient Era tech by less than 2%.
• I might also play around with relocating particular techs. It looks to me like there is enough flexibility to move Ritualism and Fishing upwards, restoring the arrow from Ritualism to Herbalism but losing the arrow from Ritualism to Slavery.

Mongolia starts with Storytelling, Ottomans start with Ritualism. (I don't think it hurts anything for Megapack civilizations to start with Weaving. It might make an interesting twist for civilizations to start with 1 tech from column 1 and 1 tech from column 2; I picked the techs I think are weaker to populate column 2 and the best ones to populate column 3.)

Slinger moves to Hunting. This does not change starting units. Without Start as Minors, civilizations with Hunting get a Scout. With Start as Minors, civilizations with Hunting get a Scout and a Warrior.

 

[<Nexus>]

I think if you did there would be problems:

• If Slinger's strength doesn't increase, it becomes an obsolete unit cluttering up the build list. I don't think having a really efficient bombard unit is a good idea this early.
  
• If Slinger's strength does increase, then it may become too efficient. It also messes up power level calculations. <iPower> is a separate variable and I've been setting it at (unit strength) ^ 1.3, but iPower can't change with unit strength increases unless we did more DLL work.

THX for the reminder. I'll keep that in mind and take into account.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

Column 2 still has arrows from Column 1 into Mining, the Wheel, Husbandry, and Woodworking. The situation is unchanged.

 

[Vokarya]

Column 2 still has arrows from Column 1 into Mining, the Wheel, Husbandry, and Woodworking. The situation is unchanged.

Spreading the techs out prevents a "wall of techs" in any given column. I didn't say it was perfect.

 

[Vokarya]

An inconsistency I noticed: Should all resources be hidden at game-start without techs?

Vanilla BTS hides only the strategic resources (Horses, Copper, Iron, Coal, Oil, Aluminum, Uranium), while health and happiness resources all start out revealed. AND hides most resources, but there are a few that don't have a reveal tech:

• Clam/Crab/Fish/Shrimp (the Fishing food resources)
• Fur/Ivory (two of the three Camp resources)
• Dye (slated to get Weaving as a reveal tech)
• Incense
  
• Salt
• Sugar
  
• Wine

For consistency's sake, I think all resources should have a reveal tech. Also, I think hiding the resources at first fits the "up from survival" theme of the Ancient Era.

 

[<Nexus>]

For consistency's sake, I think all resources should have a reveal tech. Also, I think hiding the resources at first fits the "up from survival" theme of the Ancient Era.

I agree.
Maybe Ivory is okay with revealed from the start but not necessary.

 

[Gunner19]

I agree, hiding the resources at the start make sense.

 

[rtt4a]

I agree.
Maybe Ivory is okay with revealed from the start but not necessary.

I second this and also fishing resources could be left visible. People has always, lot longer than 6000 BC, used animals for food.
First you get only the bonuses on actual resource and later when you tech what ever is needed for improvement you get more bonuses.

I would even change deer visible also..


but totally agree on these..

• Dye (slated to get Weaving as a reveal tech)
• Incense
  
• Salt
• Sugar
  
• Wine

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

The issue with hiding all resources is that no tech path is more rational than the others. It also subtracts from the excitement of the eXploration phase, where you spot and plan settlements next to the juiciest tiles.

Is there really a gameplay reason to hide all the resources? No, I think it should just be a partial hiding, where techs are differentiated a bit by this ability to give some map awareness (not: all map awareness), and it depends on your starting biome. It should also depend on what the resource provides - luxury or bonus.

If there were a reason to have a 'rule' for consistency's sake, it would be to keep either the or behind the tech wall. I think it should be .

I say hide plantation resources as well as Wine, and hide camp luxuries, but leave the farm resources and fishing boats in a mixed state; -- Pick the hidden resources, using their rules in the map scripts, to optimize the balance of those techs.

 

[Vokarya]

I'm not planning to hide too many resources beyond the end of the Ancient Era. I like the idea of the Ancient Era starting with lots of limitations that you eventually remove as you proceed through the tech tree. I feel like it's too easy to beeline into the Classical Era and then go back to fill out the Ancient, and I'd rather not have that, but I also don't want to be heavy-handed about it by forcing tech prerequisites. This will encourage working up-and-down rather than just going forward.

This is the breakdown I'm looking at.

• Agriculture: Corn, Potato, Rice, Wheat
• Animal Husbandry: Horse
• Bronze Working: Copper
• Fermentation: Coffee, Tea, Wine
• Fishing: Clam, Crab, Fish, Pearls, Shrimp
• Herbalism: Apple, Banana, Olives, Lemons, Spices, Sugar
• Hunting: Cow, Deer, Fur, Ivory, Pig
• Masonry: Marble, Salt
• Mining: Gems, Gold, Lead, Silver
• Mysticism: Hemp, Incense, Tobacco
• Stone Tools: Obsidian, Stone
• Weaving: Cotton, Dye, Silk, Sheep

Most of these are Ancient-1 or Ancient-2 techs. Bronze Working, Masonry, and Fermentation are a little further down.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

Starting with limitations is fair enough, even ones that cast a huge veil of murk over the initial initial gameplay, I get, appreciate, and agree with that goal, but it's still true that making the map entirely blank also erases the decisions and the appetitive excitement.
Hide the strategic resources and most of the luxuries. And relax the emphasis on regularity, it's less alive like that. (Am I alone here?)

 

[Pepo]

I agree with horseshoe here. Counting how slow the start usually is, getting the most out of the exploration phase would be better. About regularly, I feel that balance is impossible in Civ games, but i think that making most techs useful is good for the game

 

[<Nexus>]

• Masonry: Marble, Salt

For Marble reveal I would choose Stone Tools or Mining, but agree the rest.

 

[Vokarya]

Marble is currently revealed at Masonry. My guess is that Marble is more of a luxury than Stone.

Even with what I'm proposing, some resources will be visible at game start due to starting techs. Out of the six possible starting techs of Agriculture, Fishing, Hunting, Ritualism, Stone Tools, and Storytelling, only Ritualism and Storytelling do not reveal resources. No civilization starts with Ritualism/Storytelling as their techs. The lowest number of resources is revealed by Ritualism/Stone Tools, which is the starting tech combo for India, Korea, Mali, and Maya. If you start with Ritualism, though, you can speed up your science with early Elder Councils. You also need to research these other techs to give you Worker actions.

My issue with the Ancient Era is that it feels nowhere interesting enough, and it deserves as much attention as the rest of the game. Every time I play, I feel like I rush through it, which I don't like.

 

[Vokarya]

So there is one more thing with the Ancient Era that I want to do. The final result will be to replace Caste System with two new Ancient Era techs. The problem is that I do not know what the first tech is supposed to be. I do know a great deal about what it needs to do to be viable.

I have never liked Caste System as a tech. I feel it exhausts itself after its first two tricks and so is not really broad enough for a tech. It is also hard to tie into the rest of the tech tree. Caste System currently only feeds into Monarchy and that feels forced.

Plus, I have been looking for a tech to represent the emergence of actual government and create a "centerpiece" tech for the Ancient Era. Taking a page from Civ6's Civics Tree, I think Code of Laws would be ideal. I would not actually take anything currently at CoL out of the Classical Era. I think Oratory would make a good replacement tech and also serve as an additional prerequisite for Drama.

To place new Code of Laws properly, I want it at Ancient Level 3, alongside Bronze Working, Masonry, Pottery, and Trade. I think the techs in Ancient Era Levels 1 and 2 represent prehistoric times but are included here for game purposes. Ancient-3 is where the Bronze Age begins.

What is missing is a solid lead-in to an Ancient-3 Code of Laws tech. This is the current roster of Ancient-2 techs.

• Animal Husbandry
• Herbalism
• Mining
• Mysticism
• Slavery
• Stargazing
• The Wheel
• Weaving
  
• Woodworking

None of these feel plausible as a good prerequisite for Code of Laws, and I'm planning to have Slavery be after Code of Laws rather than before it. So I am looking for an idea for a new tech to be that lead-in. I don't want to push Code of Laws up to Ancient-4. So I need a tech that can fill a level-2 spot, and that means it needs to have level-1 prerequisites; level-2 prerequisites can be OR requirements, but can't be mandatory. Also, this tech shouldn't have a name that sounds like it comes out of an anthropology textbook. Some concepts that I think could work with a snappier name are:

• Permanent settlements (although making Woodworking mandatory would push it up to level 3, which I don't want)
  
• Emergence of record-keeping
• Development of a social hierarchy; basically a broader version of Caste System

I'm willing to harvest tricks from other techs to get this unnamed tech up to 2 tricks for viability.

This is what I want new Code of Laws to do:

• Prerequisite for Ethics, Slavery, Warfare, and Monarchy. Code of Laws would also be at least an OR prerequisite for Writing.
  
• Allows some of the first civic changes: Despotism, Caste, and Conscription are all here. Warrior Code moves up to Warfare tech.
• Unlocks the Science slider (earlier than its current location at Writing)
  
• Ends minor civilization status. Open Borders and Embassies would stay at Writing.

This is enough for a tech by itself. I might also move Village Hall up to here. It doesn't currently have a tech requirement but its cost feels out of place compared to other buildings very nearby.

So I'm looking for any other possible ideas for what might fill in that level-2 tech slot.