Tech Tree Revisions
- Thread starter Vokarya
- Start date
HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
Here's the first tree I was even able to draw. Despite sacrificing many things, I'm still in disbelief that I could get it to work.
One problem is Stone Tools being over from Wheel and Mining, combined with the new stack in column 2 caused by Agriculture into Weaving. Wheel and Mining, which are needed to be somewhere around Pottery and thus Trade, are restricted in appearing higher than I want them to go. The problem is many other rows needing arrows in them. Not just the techs themselves, but arrows you know must be drawn have to fit into the 10 lanes. It's a mess, a real mess.
One problem is Stone Tools being over from Wheel and Mining, combined with the new stack in column 2 caused by Agriculture into Weaving. Wheel and Mining, which are needed to be somewhere around Pottery and thus Trade, are restricted in appearing higher than I want them to go. The problem is many other rows needing arrows in them. Not just the techs themselves, but arrows you know must be drawn have to fit into the 10 lanes. It's a mess, a real mess.
I would like to clean up Herbalism tech a little. It has a couple of minor tricks that I don't think are serving a practical purpose.
Jungle Camp is available with Stone Tools and gets +1 food at Herbalism. I don't think we should put an improvement and its bonus this close together. Instead, consolidate the Jungle Camp to get +1 food all the time and remove the bonus at Herbalism. JC should stay at Stone Tools to alleviate the temptation to just burn Jungle and get it out of the way.
Medic I also requires Herbalism. Has anyone ever gotten to the point where they could get this promotion due to XP but can't for not having the tech? It normally requires 5 XP, 4 for Charismatic, 2 for Aggressive or Protective (free promos circumvent the requirement). You shouldn't be getting 5 XP that early in the game unless you settle a Great General, and the starter civic (Banditry/Brutes) is getting a -100% GG penalty which will further reduce early generals. I think we should either move this requirement up to Ancient Medicine or delete it completely.
Jungle Camp is available with Stone Tools and gets +1 food at Herbalism. I don't think we should put an improvement and its bonus this close together. Instead, consolidate the Jungle Camp to get +1 food all the time and remove the bonus at Herbalism. JC should stay at Stone Tools to alleviate the temptation to just burn Jungle and get it out of the way.
Medic I also requires Herbalism. Has anyone ever gotten to the point where they could get this promotion due to XP but can't for not having the tech? It normally requires 5 XP, 4 for Charismatic, 2 for Aggressive or Protective (free promos circumvent the requirement). You shouldn't be getting 5 XP that early in the game unless you settle a Great General, and the starter civic (Banditry/Brutes) is getting a -100% GG penalty which will further reduce early generals. I think we should either move this requirement up to Ancient Medicine or delete it completely.
HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
This patch was almost beatiful... it will come down to whether the engine likes the arrows onto CoL. I figure, at least I kept Athletics->Aesthetics:
This format has an option. You can draw the whole right shelf up one space, and dispossess Athletics->Aesthetics again, to have a straight line from Ethics to Philo. Maybe that one is better. I'll upload it in a sec.
Oh wait, it actually can be what I thought. I forgot I could move COMMUNITY :
The same option exists regarding the right-hand shelf for Aesthetics. edit2: You can get a clear impression of the choices by using the image browser for this post.
This format has an option. You can draw the whole right shelf up one space, and dispossess Athletics->Aesthetics again, to have a straight line from Ethics to Philo. Maybe that one is better. I'll upload it in a sec.
Oh wait, it actually can be what I thought. I forgot I could move COMMUNITY :
The same option exists regarding the right-hand shelf for Aesthetics. edit2: You can get a clear impression of the choices by using the image browser for this post.
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Here are two more speculations I came up with as I was looking at the Ancient Era.
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Fermentation: The prerequisites for Fermentation don't make a lot of sense as a whole. It currently requires Agriculture AND Herbalism AND Stone Tools AND Trade. The first two I can understand; Agriculture means a dependable source of material and Herbalism needs at least one mandatory outbound arrow, so Fermentation is a good choice. But Stone Tools doesn't seem to fit as much, and I think Trade pushes Fermentation up too far.
I think that Community + Herbalism would be a better set of requirements, and then we bring Fermentation back a couple columns.
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Pottery and The Wheel: In BTS, these two techs are linked. I wonder if they have to stay that way in AND. Pottery is a pre-Ancient development; if we dropped The Wheel requirement, we could move Pottery to Ancient-2 with a requirement of (Fishing OR Agriculture) + Stone Tools. I don't want to put Crafting here. That would keep Pottery pinned at Ancient-3.
In BTS, The Wheel is the first tool-making tech. We have Stone Tools to fill that niche now. The Wheel could be moved upward. I think Crafting + Animal Husbandry would be a good set of requirements.
The only problem with moving The Wheel is that Paths are tied to it. I don't want to move anything off The Wheel because that would drop it into the 2-trick red zone (Chariot + Wheelwright). A Route is required to get benefits from a resource beyond the improvement, especially for strategic resources. So there are two things that I think could be done:
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Fermentation: The prerequisites for Fermentation don't make a lot of sense as a whole. It currently requires Agriculture AND Herbalism AND Stone Tools AND Trade. The first two I can understand; Agriculture means a dependable source of material and Herbalism needs at least one mandatory outbound arrow, so Fermentation is a good choice. But Stone Tools doesn't seem to fit as much, and I think Trade pushes Fermentation up too far.
I think that Community + Herbalism would be a better set of requirements, and then we bring Fermentation back a couple columns.
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Pottery and The Wheel: In BTS, these two techs are linked. I wonder if they have to stay that way in AND. Pottery is a pre-Ancient development; if we dropped The Wheel requirement, we could move Pottery to Ancient-2 with a requirement of (Fishing OR Agriculture) + Stone Tools. I don't want to put Crafting here. That would keep Pottery pinned at Ancient-3.
In BTS, The Wheel is the first tool-making tech. We have Stone Tools to fill that niche now. The Wheel could be moved upward. I think Crafting + Animal Husbandry would be a good set of requirements.
The only problem with moving The Wheel is that Paths are tied to it. I don't want to move anything off The Wheel because that would drop it into the 2-trick red zone (Chariot + Wheelwright). A Route is required to get benefits from a resource beyond the improvement, especially for strategic resources. So there are two things that I think could be done:
- Leave Paths where they are. While this appeals to my sense of having the Ancient Era dole out benefits slowly, this is probably pushing it.
- Move Roads to The Wheel, and move Paths to Stone Tools. This would allow you to start hooking up resources earlier.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
I don't see any need of such a change. Why make AH mandatory? The first wheels were used on handcarts, chariots and wagons came only later. So I think it would be only needless complication.
But if you insist on doing it anyway I'd prefer the first option. However, whether you choose the first or the second option, some players will complain about it.
HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
Breaking my heart, V.
In this particular case, I am already planning to relocate Slavery to the last column of the Ancient Era. So the decreased hammers from later Slavery would cancel out the increased hammers from earlier Roads.
Also, Roads don't have to give +1 hammer to Mines. That is a place where we have full control over when this bonus is added.
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
On that Roads do give +1 
, but paved roads doesn't give +1
Just switch it between the two.
Logically, a paved road, would enable greater production, as opposed to a muddy dirt road.
, but paved roads doesn't give +1 Just switch it between the two.
Logically, a paved road, would enable greater production, as opposed to a muddy dirt road.
On that Roads do give +1
Just switch it between the two.
Logically, a paved road, would enable greater production, as opposed to a muddy dirt road.
Actually, they do get the bonus. Modern Mine is the only one that benefits from Maglev and Jumplane, but the Modern Mine is available so far before those two routes come available that the previous mines should have upgraded from being worked before the routes come available.
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
I've found if you upgrade from a road to a paved road, you don't get the extra hammer bonus.
A road, or a paved road alone, yes, it does, but upgrading from a road to a paved road does not.
A road, or a paved road alone, yes, it does, but upgrading from a road to a paved road does not.
Yes, it's a flat +1 regardless of route type. I don't want it to go any higher than that.
I've been thinking about this a lot, and it's not just specific to The Wheel. For every tech, there is the point at which it was "discovered" and the point where it is mature and in relatively common usage. I think this second point is really the proper place to put techs on the tech tree. So in The Wheel's case, it isn't just wheels on handcarts. I think that animal-drawn wagons and other vehicles are the better place to put the tech. I would be willing to move Roads here because then it would open up some more space between Roads and Paved Roads. As it is, they are very close together. I would rather have space between Roads and Paved Roads rather than between Paths and Roads.
I also have a few suspicions about the placement of Banking and Optics, but I'll leave those in the Medieval Era because we need a decent number of Medieval techs. The tech that I think is most improperly placed right now is Virtual Reality. This is currently in Modern-7. I don't even think VR is a mature tech right now, so it should probably be placed in Transhuman-1 or even Transhuman-2. However, replacing VR on the tree would be difficult. All of its tricks would have to go elsewhere and I would want to make another tech to keep the Modern Era at 40 techs exactly.
The other thing that I want to seriously cut down on is the number of buildings and units that require more than one tech. I went through the unit list alone and I found 38 units that have multiple tech prerequisites. I don't like this being used too much. It feels like a bait-and-switch where some of the game text promises unit X for researching tech Y but the real requirements include tech Z as well. Chariot not only requires The Wheel but also Animal Husbandry and Warfare as well, although the Animal Husbandry requirement is somewhat redundant because you have to have Horse, and you need AH to get Horse either naturally or by trade. If I make The Wheel require AH, then the AH requirement becomes explicitly redundant and can be dropped. I'd be willing to drop the Warfare requirement off Chariot as well. Pushing The Wheel up makes it unlikely a Chariot rush can be mounted before the target can get Archers or Spearmen in place for defense. This gives Chariot the same prerequisites it has in BTS of just The Wheel + Horse.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
I know VR is a good name but can't we just change it? I don't remember it's tricks but maybe Smart Devices? We don't have that name yet, right? That sounds like a good late-modern tech.
Paved Roads needs Stone. So there is already a space between the two depending on whether you have Stone or not. I personally don't really feel the need for this change.
I have been looking for a good icon for Rhetoric. This is the best I have been able to come up with. How does it look? I looked at classical-era political art and didn't see anything that made a good icon, but if anyone wants to suggest an artwork, I will take a look.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Nice icon but it's a private discussion between Plato and Aristotle.
I'd rather start with this:
I'd rather start with this:
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
So I just made 2 quick solutions:
