Tech Tree thoughts?

[Arkaeyn]

Here's the wiki of a tech tree: http://rhye.civfanatics.net/wiki/index.php?title=Tech_Tree. The fourth message in this thread has a simpler list of updates to the tech tree.





ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

So what are the general plans for tech tree improvements? Are we sticking with roughly the Civ4/RFC ancient, classical, and early medieval techs? Adding a bunch of new ones? Significant revamp?

 

[Rhye]

I think that the tree will need to be expanded, but not for the sake of it.
Every tech should offer something. Wonders, units above all. I believe we should think of what units and wonders we want to add, and later placing them where we want. For instance: we might add quadrireme: where?
However, post here your ideas, or even your own trees. Feel free to open a units thread too.

 

[Arkaeyn]

Here's a list of the RFC techs through the eras this should be covering:

Fishing
Hunting
The Wheel
Agriculture
Mysticism
Mining

Sailing
Pottery
Animal Husbandry
Archery
Meditation
Polytheism
Masonry

Horseback Riding
Priesthood
Monotheism
Bronze Working

Writing
Metal Casting
Iron Working

Aesthetics
Mathematics
Alphabet
Monarchy
Compass

Literature
Calendar
Construction
Currency
Machinery



that's 30, and takes us to the point of the medieval spawns, roughly turn 180 in RFC. The Greek World mod is scheduled to go almost double that, so with that as a guideline, we may want twice as many techs (although somewhat more or somewhat less wouldn't be a problem, as the tech rate can be altered.)

 

[Arkaeyn]

This message is for the potential tree to use. Legend: italics mean that this is a new tech. underline means that this is a changed or simply renamed tech. greyed out means that a tech has been deleted. * means that a tech is currently an end-point and doesn't allow further techs (and isn't in the final tier).



Fishing
Hunting
The Wheel
Agriculture
Mysticism
Mining

Sailing
Pottery
Animal Husbandry
Archery
Mythology
Polytheism
Masonry
Trade
Logging
Herbalism

Horseback Riding
Priesthood
Monotheism
Bronze Working
Storytelling
Code of Laws
Amphora*

Writing
Metal Casing
Iron Working
Philosophy
Citizenship
Military Science
Tyranny

Aesthetics
Mathematics
Alphabet
Democracy
Compass
Aristocracy
Naval Warfare*
Medicine*
Education*

Standing Army
Republicanism
Literature
Calendar
Construction
Currency
Machinery
Music
Drama


Currently 45

 

[Arkaeyn]

Here are six techs which occur after the ancient, classical, or early medieval era in RFC, but also had impact in the era of the Greek World mod:

Music
Democracy
Philosophy
Drama
Code of Laws
Education

 

[Rhye]

And Medicine and Military Science too. I disagree with Meditation. I have renamed it Mythology.
We need more naval techs.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Maybe something like the use of sea currents, something about ships that can transport goods better, something about minor colonies, and maybe something like Fishing Fleets.
I think CIV currently really neglects in the ancient and classical era the importance of the sea outside of war, especially in Trading and colonizing in the classical era which was a huge aspect of the sea (a civ like Phoenicia for example relied heavily on those things).

 

[Arkaeyn]

I also think that Machinery isn't a good fit for this mod, where the other early medieval techs are. I'm putting Democracy on the same level as Monarchy, which for the purposes of the mod, I'm renaming Tyranny (although Monarchy could exist as well, but would need some Civic thinking to differentiate it from Tyranny.)

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

If we are to make an accurate tech tree, let it at least reflect the technological progress of antiquity. For example, Greek theater evolved from a religious festival, so Drama should descend from a religious tech.

 

[Arkaeyn]

more thoughts:

Along with Tyranny and Democracy, the third major government type in Greece was the Oligarchy. Combine that with Republicanism and Imperium and we have six governmental civics. Huzzah! I think Imperium should go with a tech that I'm calling Standing Army. Standing Army represents the Marian Reforms of the Roman military, and would also allow for an advanced swordsman unit. (this also means it's time for a Civics thread)

Until we can think of a name for the tech that gives us Quinquiremes, I'm adding it as Naval Warfare.

Another good technology would be Storytelling. This leads to the Heroic Epic national wonder. Gilgamesh, the Iliad, you're in!

Finally, if we have an advanced infantry unit, we also need an advanced cavalry unit. For now, I believe that this should be a heavy cavalry recruitable with an Aristocracy tech.



EDIT: Not sure why I thought there were six civics. Going to have to decide on narrowing one of these down. Probably going to be Oligarchy

 

[Arkaeyn]

Nano, that's probably good, though I'm kind of avoiding the religious techs for the moment, as they're attached to the religions thread.

MORE CHANGES:

I'm also suggesting a tech called Trade to help bridge the monetary gap until Currency, which is now an end-game tech.

Code of Laws and Philosophy need to be much earlier up the tree. So here goes:

The Wheel leads to Trade. Trade leads to Code of Laws and eventually Currency. Code of Laws requires Trade and Pottery. It leads to Philosophy and Democracy and Tyranny. Philosophy also requires Mysticism, and leads to Aesthetics. Aesthetics is now a jumping-off point for Literature (with Polytheism), Music (with Mathematics), and Drama (with Storytelling).


I'm adding Theology not as a tech I want to have with that name, but as a placeholder for the tech that founds Xtianity. I also think it should require Alphabet instead of Writing, so as to avoid Oracle-based Xtianity-bombs.

I've also added Requirements and Leads to on all the techs in the wiki, which now functions as kind of a visual tech tree. Better than this one: http://rhye.civfanatics.net/wiki/index.php?title=Tech_Tree

Can we change Mysticism back to Ceremonial Burial? Or re-add CB?


EDIT:

Hoo lawd! This is kind of fun. Like a puzzle. I tried to connect all the techs we've put into the mod with effects. This meant: Naval Warfare requires Compass. Standing Army requires Iron Working and Democracy or Tyranny.

This led me to something of a dilemma with Aristocracy and Republicanism. I solved this with Citizenship which should also lead to a civic, probably Legal. Alone it leads to Republicanism, and with Horseback Riding it can get Aristocracy.

The only tech in the wiki right now without a full set of pre-reqs is Advanced Archery, but I'm okay with that.

 

[Rhye]

I've added some changes.

Are we sure we want to keep Compass? Was there any compass at that time? What about a replacement with a oar-related tech?

 

[Arkaeyn]

cursory research says yes, Compass bad. It existed in China but not Europe or the Middle East until much later.

 

[Arkaeyn]

Some more changes:

a Ram unit was suggested as a pre-catapult siege weapon. Where to put it? I added a Logging tech, which requires Hunting and Mining. It's also a pre-req for Mathematics, and when trees can be chopped (duh)

Added Herbalism with a pre-req of Agriculture or Hunting. Herbalism, with Philosophy, now leads to Medicine.

Eliminated Compass. Now, Naval Warfare requires Military Science and Sailing.

Military Science now allows for the so-called advanced archer unit, the Peltast (javelineers). With Metal Casing, it also can create the advanced spearman unit, the Hoplite.

 

[Heathcliff]

Some ideas of new technologies, units, wonders and buildings might be gotten from the Rise of Mankind mod, which features 3-4 times more of everything compared to vanilla civ.

 

[Arkaeyn]

I have now added descriptions of what each does in allowing buildings, units, etc, to the wiki, with links to those units/buildings/etc, although the text in those boxes is non-existent. I generally ignored "Founding Religion," though.

Several wonders are going to need to be re-examined, of course. This just helped to demonstrate that.

 

[Steb]

Some suggested changes:

Literature to require storytelling
Drama to require only Aesthetics, not Storytelling (or it's the same as Literature)
Astronomy to require only Calendar (which already includes math and sailing)
Democracy not to require Code of Laws, which is already needed for Citizenship
New tech: cartography or map making; requires sailing, leads to... Astronomy?; extends the naval line.


We need more early Medieval tech or something, because right now even the last techs in our tree were known by the 5th century BC (currency, democracy, calendar, astronomy, education, drama, medicine...).

 

[scratzin]

Maybe a black-figure and red-figure pottery tech after pottery?

I guess it would unlock a potter building that has +1 and +25%


My vote is that the globe theatre ( no in a city) is replaced by the Theater of Asklepios at Epidauros


National epic replaced with Epicurean school?



Also, me thinks more philosophy related techs should be added

 

[Arkaeyn]

Most of the early medieval techs in Civ4/RFC were after the scope of this mod, as I recall. That may be tougher.

 

[Steb]

The problem is that unlike RFC or RFC:E, the mod ends in a time where there was not much advancement... We really need a solution; I don't want to see Athens researching Philosophy in 450 AD. On the other hand, civs like the Celts are likely to be way less advanced even by the end of the mod.

An idea for an Athenian UHV: be the first to complete the tech tree?