Temple of Artemis viable?

[krikav]

Welcome back @BornInCantaloup, we have missed you!

A regular bulb-strategy to acquire a military tech leaves you deprived of a) production and b) research. Bulb, bulb, bulb : you reach a plateau. Then you can either have hammers or commerce : not both. It's the same trouble you get when you spend the game building Wealth : when you stop (to build units), then you lose your research power by lack of infrastructure.

Yeah, in theory bulbing is really bad. You spend alot of long term potential and sustained momentum for a short burst.
Why it's really good in practice is because that burst can at a critical moment get you an edge that you can leverage. (Most common, conquer alot of cities for cheap).

 

[Anysense]

As usual BiC thought of something everybody else did not consider - OCC Conquest. I did Domination once for a gauntlet; that was a cheesy game on Warlord difficulty, though. Deity OCC Conquest/Domination is a tough challenge.

 

[Fippy]

The Temple of Artemis is one of the strongest wonders available in OCC. Arguably on par with the Pyramids.

Welcome back
And sorry for the quote, but just..nope

Me and mostly Pangaea played on OCC conquest only.
Building units is not an issue.
Priests give just 1 more than settled scientists, i can only suggest that you should avoid those guys.

 

[Major Tom]

Welcome back
And sorry for the quote, but just..nope

Me and mostly Pangaea played on OCC conquest only.
Building units is not an issue.
Priests give just 1 more than settled scientists, i can only suggest that you should avoid those guys.

This is an interesting discussion. Please, go on.

BiC: Hammers are the most critical thing. Earlier is better.
Fippy: Early research should have the top priority?

 

[jmas]

This is an interesting discussion. Please, go on.

 

[Nick723]

From my experience on OCC, I would agree that prophets are pretty good. The only ‘bad’ great person is the spy, but that’s not normally an issue unless in an always war game and building the Great Wall.

@Fippy i thought from your conquest game gold did become an issue paying for units? Also ever hammer from a GP is one fewer ‘natural’ hammer you need, so can work fewer mines in favour of better tiles?

Even if going for space, having some natural GPT is valuable to buy techs etc (or avoid having to put in turns to various techs to open up trades).

However I normally don’t get TOA, because it comes at same time as pyramids and I’m not sure how to get both. So can’t really comment on value of TOA vs pyramids, but instinctively pyramids are worth more.

 

[krikav]

Well... I have played like 1 OCC game ever, just to try it out. And I went to space.
I got Justinian, and had no stone/marble, so didn't even try for pyramids. But I felt that working floodplains-cottages (later towns) was pretty good up until you got globe/nat-park and could just grow the city really large, and by that time you had representation already.

So I'm not 100% sold that pyramids are a end all be all for OCC.
Might be totally different playing a Phi-leader though, as then you get alot more settled GPersons prior to getting up to constitution.

 

[Fippy]

Ofc Priests are useful later, but imo they delay everything before too much.
If you cannot bulb Philo / Edu bigger gains are delayed, like in regular games it might then be too late on deity.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Welcome back
And sorry for the quote, but just..nope

Me and mostly Pangaea played on OCC conquest only.
Building units is not an issue.
Priests give just 1 more than settled scientists, i can only suggest that you should avoid those guys.

Yeah, sure, but you didn't really have a great success, didn't you ? And used Spain to make bulbs better.
From your map, see :

Spoiler :

This is something that can be done. And would have a lot less trouble finishing the game. It's not nearly optimal, I researched Drama like a dummy. Also lost on the Mids, which is a shame.
For reference, your team save completes the Library in 300 BC. I mean, yeah, sure, you can bulb. Can you see the advantages of powering up GPP from 2400 BC ? I won't teach you if you can't.

FWIW, Obsolete has been playing OCC conquest from 1999 or so. Always wonderspammed. It's not a new thing. He always won in the 1900's, though, because he never cottaged and always built forest preserves.

 

[Trout]

I like to play the Earth 18 scenario as France quite often. In that situation, I often build ToA in Paris and am never sorry I did so. But that's a very specific situation in which:

1. Louis is Industrious
2. Has marble in his capital BFC
3. Can capture three neighboring AI capitals very quickly so that while Paris is building ToA, there are plenty of other cities which can be contributing in big ways to empire growth.
4. Paris later builds the NE so that the ToA GPP is doubled.
5. In the course of the game, Paris builds several other wonders and is the GP farm to where you are not targeting a specific kind of GP to pop from it.
6. A shrine on a huge map where you will eventually have 100+ cities generates an enormous amount of cash
7. Paris is coastal so the TR boost is nice.

So yes, ToA is well worth building IMHO often in that situation. But that is a very specific set of circumstances in place to maximize the value and minimize the cost.

 

[civac]

I have seen ToA build in Pitboss games to quickly generate a Great Prophet for a self-founded religion. You'd rather want Stonhenge or the Oracle for that but those wonders are more sought after and get built earlier. ToA generates a Great Prophet much faster at the cost of a 25% failure rate.