Term 5 Judiciary

[Black_Hole]

Do you have a link for it?...

sorry, I was busy when i posted that

 

[mhcarver]

A citizen of the Demogame has contacted me anymously and wished to file a Citizen Complaint against Epithemus

the complaint reads

I, An anonymous citizen, will file a Citizen Complaint against the City Naming Office and Epimethius.

He has broken article N which says all rights not decscribed in the constitution are the right of every citizen. Since the constitution says nothing about city names, it is presumed each citizen has the right to name a city. However Epimethius as shown below has switched city names around. Also note, this is not the first time he has messed up in the citizen naming office.

Note: Since this is a bit long, the important information has been bolded.

Evidence:
1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Article N
Article N: Rights reserved to the people As provided by Article A of this constitution, all actions not forbidden by forum rules, or by this Constitution, are presumed to be within the right of every citizen. Actions prescribed by this Constitution may be substituted by other similar actions, provided such substitution lies within the spirit of these rules.


2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 360 AD TC instructions
City Naming Office Instructions

Eridu should immediately be renammed Nihilon
Any city founded or captured should also be renamed with the next name in this order. This is copied from the City Name Registry. If this list is not enough, then simply continue from there.

1. Doomsville
2. Baldur's Gate
3. Ominato
4. Kagemusha
5. Drachenfels
6. Fishpond if near a lake or Duckburg is anywhere else.

Rome should not be renamed. Should it be captured a poll on the matter of its name will be held.

Link : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showp...129&postcount=5

NOTICE how this list deviates from Citizen Registry List:

3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen Registry
Babbler
Msz4
Provolution
Annatar
Ankka

Link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showp...688&postcount=2

4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 610 AD instruction thread
-Ravenna will be renamed Port Solema, by request of Babbler.
-Hispalis will be renamed Ominato, by request of msz4.
-Viroconium will be renamed Kagemusha, by request of Provolution.

-Rome will not be renamed, as is tradition with wonder sites and former capitals. A poll will be held on what to rename it, if anything.

-TBD (Neo-Neapolis) will be renamed Drachenfels, by request of Annatar.
-TBD 2 (North Corrino) will be renamed Duckburg, by request of Ankka.

Link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showp...652&postcount=5

Notice, Vironicum was not conquered at that time he posted instructions, it was conquered 590 AD.

Alphabethically, this would be:

Hispalis 570 BC founded, conquered 450 AD
Neo Neapolis, 490 AD founded,
North Corrino, 520 AD founded
Ravenna, 950 BC founded, conquered before 440 AD
Vironicum, 150 AD founded, conquered 590 AD

The above information shows that Virconium was conquored after Neo Neapolis

This is how is should be:

Ravenna 440 AD conquest (babbler) Port Solema
Hispalis 450 AD conquest (msz4) Ominato
Neo Neapolis 490 AD (Provolution) Kagemushab
"North Corrino" 520 AD (Annatar) Drachenfels
Viroconum 590 AD conquest (Ankka) Duckburg

This means, as proven by the Citizen Registry list, compared to various chatlogs and screenies, not to mention saves, as well as Epimethius own instructions, that his bias had lead the named city to be dislocated to the corrupt edge of Japanatica.
Kagemusha should have been where Drachenfels is now, not the other way around. All I want with this trial is to have Epimethius proven for obvious misconduct in handling the simplest of the simplest tasks, either to extreme incompetence, or by motivated intent to harm a political rival.

Thank-You,
Concerned Citizen

 

[Black_Hole]

Notice: I have also been contacted by the undisclosed defendant. Unfortunately through pming, the bbcode didnt go through, so below is the same version with bbcode working..

____________________________________________________________________________

I, An anonymous citizen, will file a Citizen Complaint against the City Naming Office and Epimethius.

He has broken article N which says all rights not decscribed in the constitution are the right of every citizen. Since the constitution says nothing about city names, it is presumed each citizen has the right to name a city. However Epimethius as shown below has switched city names around. Also note, this is not the first time he has messed up in the citizen naming office.

Note: Since this is a bit long, the important information has been bolded.

Evidence:
1.

Article N: Rights reserved to the people As provided by Article A of this constitution, all actions not forbidden by forum rules, or by this Constitution, are presumed to be within the right of every citizen. Actions prescribed by this Constitution may be substituted by other similar actions, provided such substitution lies within the spirit of these rules.

2.

City Naming Office Instructions

Eridu should immediately be renammed Nihilon
Any city founded or captured should also be renamed with the next name in this order. This is copied from the City Name Registry. If this list is not enough, then simply continue from there.

1. Doomsville
2. Baldur's Gate
3. Ominato
4. Kagemusha
5. Drachenfels
6. Fishpond if near a lake or Duckburg is anywhere else.

Rome should not be renamed. Should it be captured a poll on the matter of its name will be held.

Link : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2227129&postcount=5

NOTICE how this list deviates from Citizen Registry List:

3.

Babbler
Msz4
Provolution
Annatar
Ankka

Link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2057688&postcount=2

4.

-Ravenna will be renamed Port Solema, by request of Babbler.
-Hispalis will be renamed Ominato, by request of msz4.
-Viroconium will be renamed Kagemusha, by request of Provolution.

-Rome will not be renamed, as is tradition with wonder sites and former capitals. A poll will be held on what to rename it, if anything.

-TBD (Neo-Neapolis) will be renamed Drachenfels, by request of Annatar.
-TBD 2 (North Corrino) will be renamed Duckburg, by request of Ankka.

Link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2253652&postcount=5

Notice, Vironicum was not conquered at that time he posted instructions, it was conquered 590 AD.

Alphabethically, this would be:

Hispalis 570 BC founded, conquered 450 AD
Neo Neapolis, 490 AD founded,
North Corrino, 520 AD founded
Ravenna, 950 BC founded, conquered before 440 AD
Vironicum, 150 AD founded, conquered 590 AD

The above information shows that Virconium was conquored after Neo Neapolis

This is how is should be:

Ravenna 440 AD conquest (babbler) Port Solema
Hispalis 450 AD conquest (msz4) Ominato
Neo Neapolis 490 AD (Provolution) Kagemushab
"North Corrino" 520 AD (Annatar) Drachenfels
Viroconum 590 AD conquest (Ankka) Duckburg

This means, as proven by the Citizen Registry list, compared to various chatlogs and screenies, not to mention saves, as well as Epimethius own instructions, that his bias had lead the named city to be dislocated to the corrupt edge of Japanatica.
Kagemusha should have been where Drachenfels is now, not the other way around. All I want with this trial is to have Epimethius proven for obvious misconduct in handling the simplest of the simplest tasks, either to extreme incompetence, or by motivated intent to harm a political rival.

Thank-You,
Concerned Citizen

 

[mhcarver]

I find this CC has merit and has been added to the Judicial docket, could the Judge Advocate please inform the Public Defender and the accused VIA PM as prescribed by judicial code and open the discussion thread when the time is right

-Mhcarver

 

[Black_Hole]

Judge Advocates Ruling on DG5CC#2 Judical Review

I find that DG5CC#2 has merit and should continue in the Citizen Complaint Process.

 

[Black_Hole]

From the office of the Judge Advocate

The public defender and accused have been notified by personal message.
Also note that the judical review regarding this CC having merit has not yet reached quorem(ravensfire must rule), thus a discussion will not be opened until ravensfire has ruled(althought it doesnt matter what he rules)

 

[Epimethius]

[May I speak publically on the matter, or I am supposed to hold it in until later? Assuming I can...]

Oh dear God, that's the big thing he had on me? An honest mistake made months ago?

And, while we're accusing eachother of being really cool politicians, I might as well point out that I never actually used my "trump card" on....the Anonymous but Obvious Plantiff, so its unclear why he pulled out his defense right now.

Moderator Action: Watch the language, and don't flame.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Black_Hole]

From the office of The Judge Advocate
Please save all discussion on the matter for the thread, which will be put up once ravensfire rules on the judical review.

Also Epimethius, I am prosecuting this case(not the accuser) since the accuser is anonymous, please do not post who you think he/she is, as it will most likely be wrong and create more flame wars.

Also please keep vulgarity out of the Judical Thread.

 

[Epimethius]

I didn't use any vulgarity. I said what, God?

And even if the...."victim" were to get someone else to file the complaint, its obvious from the unique style of formatting and writing, not to mention timing, that he filed it himself. Just saying.

 

[Black_Hole]

From the Office of the Judge Advocate

lying __________ politicians
also it doesnt matter who accused you, the accuser is accusing on behalf of the citiznes of japanatica, hence the the title fo the thread will be "The Citizens vs Epimethius" not Name vs Epimethius

 

[Epimethius]

Oh, yeah, I did say that, didn't I.

I just think that the time between when the mistake took place and when the complaint was filed speaks for itself on what kind of wrong was done to who here.

 

[mhcarver]

Instead of reasonable let me put it this wasy

GET OUT OF MY OFFICE THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO DISCUSS THIS. THAT GOES FOR ANYBODY, DO I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR!!!!!

 

[mhcarver]

I would also like to ask a favor of the Mods: to edit out any post(from anyone) that tries to name the accuser as it would cause flame wars and is not relevant to the proceedings

 

[ravensfire]

An anonymous Citizen's Complaint was filed against Epimethius and the City Naming Office (CNO), alleging violations of Article N of the Constitution.

Analysis
This complaint centers around actions taken during the turnchats for 360AD and for 610 AD. For the record, at the time of this analysis, we are at 1425 AD. The instructions in question are dated October 1st and October 12. It is currently December 4th.

The City Naming Office was started by citizen Epimethius in an effort to assist the President and the Minister of Internal Affairs. The Citizen Registry thread is large and citizens are continually changing the names they would like to use for cities. From my review of the evidence provided, it appears that the complaint centers around the names provided by Provolution (Kagemusha) and Annatar (Drachenfels)

There are three areas that I have concerns with about this complaint.

The first is was any harm done. Opening the current save, I see a city named Kagemusha, the name Provolution has requested, and one named Drachenfels, Annatar's requested city. I cannot see how there is currently any harm from this alleged action.

Second, the timeliness of this complaint is suspect. This CC is from actions 2 months ago. The citizen filing this complaint has had ample time to present this, yet chose not to do so. Citizens have a right to a fair trial and a right to seek a redress of grievances, among others. This does not include the right to delay filing a case beyond a reasonable amount of time. To be considered a fair trial, the rights of ALL citizens involved must be respected. The evidence presented has been available for some time, there was, and is, no viable reason for the CC to be filed at such a late date. No citizen should be faced with continually looking over their shoulder, wondering when an action, taken months ago, might be used against them. Such actions smack of political attacks, underhanded assaults and downright pettiness. CC's must be filed in a timely manner.

Third, the CNO is a citizen's office. It holds no official standing and has no power granted to it. It was created by a citizen wanting to participate in a meaningful manner to the game, using the skills and knowledge they possess. Per the Judiciary (see DG5JR18)

“The Public Defender stated that Naming Rights for Provinces and Cities fall under the supervision of the Domestic Advisor. The Judge Advocate stated that the ultimate authority for naming Provinces and Cities lies with the citizens, but the various Governors and the Domestic Advisor are to determine their will. The Chief Justice stated that Governors are responsible for giving the Provinces their permanent names and that citizens are responsible for City Naming as per their place in the Citizen Registry. “

In no place was the CNO mentioned, it was not recognized as an entity for posting instructions. I note that, during the time this was filed, an ongoing debate, of which the Judiciary was no doubt aware, on the CNO was happening.

The Preside must ... “take direction from a council of leaders and from other elected and appointed officials via the turnchat instruction thread.” (Article D). The CNO is neither an elected, nor an appointed office, and so acts in an advisory role at best. Anything posted by the CNO is not, and cannot be, a legal instruction. Without the weight of being a legal instruction behind it, there can be no harm resulting from a post by the CNO.

Ruling
For the reasons detailed above, the Public Defender finds this Citizen's Complaint does not have merit.

On a further note, I wish to take one of my fellow justices to task.

Also note that the judical review regarding this CC having merit has not yet reached quorem(ravensfire must rule), thus a discussion will not be opened until ravensfire has ruled(althought it doesnt matter what he rules)

The suggestion that what one justice has to say does not matter is reprehensible. The viewpoint of all justices is completely relevant and should be considered. Indeed, the rulings of the other two Justices took place a very short time after the CC was filed, mere minutes. I would suggest to the other Justices that they consider my arguments, and perhaps those of any other citizens, about the validity of the case. To dismiss the words simply because they are in the minority smacks of the tyranny of the majority. I am disappointed to see it.

-- Ravensfire, Public Defender

 

[Ashburnham]

For what it's worth (though I realize my opinion carries 0 weight in this matter), I agree with ravansfire's ruling. The time discrepancy between when the actions took place and when the CC was filled make this case suspect. Add to that the fact that no real harm was done (all the names on the list have been used, even if the order was switched), and I see no reason to pursue this CC. The bitterness and friction that will result from this (and, frankly, that's always a byproduct of any CC) far outweigh the possible benefits of a ruling.

 

[Black_Hole]

An anonymous Citizen's Complaint was filed against Epimethius and the City Naming Office (CNO), alleging violations of Article N of the Constitution.

Analysis
This complaint centers around actions taken during the turnchats for 360AD and for 610 AD. For the record, at the time of this analysis, we are at 1425 AD. The instructions in question are dated October 1st and October 12. It is currently December 4th.

The City Naming Office was started by citizen Epimethius in an effort to assist the President and the Minister of Internal Affairs. The Citizen Registry thread is large and citizens are continually changing the names they would like to use for cities. From my review of the evidence provided, it appears that the complaint centers around the names provided by Provolution (Kagemusha) and Annatar (Drachenfels)

There are three areas that I have concerns with about this complaint.

The first is was any harm done. Opening the current save, I see a city named Kagemusha, the name Provolution has requested, and one named Drachenfels, Annatar's requested city. I cannot see how there is currently any harm from this alleged action.

Second, the timeliness of this complaint is suspect. This CC is from actions 2 months ago. The citizen filing this complaint has had ample time to present this, yet chose not to do so. Citizens have a right to a fair trial and a right to seek a redress of grievances, among others. This does not include the right to delay filing a case beyond a reasonable amount of time. To be considered a fair trial, the rights of ALL citizens involved must be respected. The evidence presented has been available for some time, there was, and is, no viable reason for the CC to be filed at such a late date. No citizen should be faced with continually looking over their shoulder, wondering when an action, taken months ago, might be used against them. Such actions smack of political attacks, underhanded assaults and downright pettiness. CC's must be filed in a timely manner.

Third, the CNO is a citizen's office. It holds no official standing and has no power granted to it. It was created by a citizen wanting to participate in a meaningful manner to the game, using the skills and knowledge they possess. Per the Judiciary (see DG5JR18) In no place was the CNO mentioned, it was not recognized as an entity for posting instructions. I note that, during the time this was filed, an ongoing debate, of which the Judiciary was no doubt aware, on the CNO was happening.

The Preside must ... “take direction from a council of leaders and from other elected and appointed officials via the turnchat instruction thread.” (Article D). The CNO is neither an elected, nor an appointed office, and so acts in an advisory role at best. Anything posted by the CNO is not, and cannot be, a legal instruction. Without the weight of being a legal instruction behind it, there can be no harm resulting from a post by the CNO.

Ruling
For the reasons detailed above, the Public Defender finds this Citizen's Complaint does not have merit.

On a further note, I wish to take one of my fellow justices to task.
The suggestion that what one justice has to say does not matter is reprehensible. The viewpoint of all justices is completely relevant and should be considered. Indeed, the rulings of the other two Justices took place a very short time after the CC was filed, mere minutes. I would suggest to the other Justices that they consider my arguments, and perhaps those of any other citizens, about the validity of the case. To dismiss the words simply because they are in the minority smacks of the tyranny of the majority. I am disappointed to see it.

-- Ravensfire, Public Defender

I am truly sorry ravensfire,
i didnt mean it in that way, i meant it didnt matter what you ruled, because the thread would go up anyways

also the reason i voted for it having merit, is i ask myself a question:
Was a law broken? if yes then the CC should move on, it doesnt matter if it was right or not, if a law could have been broken the cc should move on, and then the citizenry should decide whether it matters that is was a long time ago

P.S. Ashburnham your opinion does count, just wait for the trial poll

 

[Epimethius]

What law was broken?

 

[blackheart]

also the reason i voted for it having merit, is i ask myself a question:
Was a law broken? if yes then the CC should move on, it doesnt matter if it was right or not, if a law could have been broken the cc should move on, and then the citizenry should decide whether it matters that is was a long time ago

What would punishment be even if this CC does succeed? The CNO isn't an elected office. Surely a ban isn't warranted in this case. That and add to the fact that neither Provolution or Annatar complained about this matter and that it is 2 months overdue points to the direction that this CC really has no merit.

As for Citizens v. Epimethius, is it really the citizens wanting a CC or just one person?

 

[Black_Hole]

What would punishment be even if this CC does succeed? The CNO isn't an elected office. Surely a ban isn't warranted in this case. That and add to the fact that neither Provolution or Annatar complained about this matter and that it is 2 months overdue points to the direction that this CC really has no merit.

As for Citizens v. Epimethius, is it really the citizens wanting a CC or just one person?

if you look at all past ccs it was the citizen verse the people.

Also please leave all of this for the investigation thread whichi will be opened soon.
Also epi, if you read the accusation post, you would know which article you broke.

 

[Black_Hole]

From the Office of the Judge Advocate

The Investigation Thread

Please redirect all dicussion to the investigation thread.
But do not post until the PD and accused have posted, or 24 hours have passed.