azzaman333
meh
2 civs need to go into a new age to cause an uprising.
Term 8 Defence Minstry: War and Peace
- Thread starter classical_hero
- Start date
fe3333au
Deity
maybe good idea to leave and then they swarm and upset the parties who are active in the area 
25 gold is negligible to us in the big picture.
THEINFAMOUSPOPS
Chieftain
I read something in the CivFanatics War Academy that I thought was interesting...
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/explorers.php
It describes the use of explorers as "Special Operation Units."
Thought they could be useful, especially if we need to retreat for any reason and fight a defencive war, pillaging roads in that jungle would slow down advancing stacks, or secure parts of the line that are more vunerable to attack.
Also having a small force of explorers would divert enemy units to guard duty on reasources or waste their attacks as they chase them.
But I've never fought against another player, so maybe it is insanity. Maybe they expect it already
an explorer, in the right circumstances I believe can pillage 2 tiles (I know for a fact it can move after pillaging, I need to check the 2 pillages). We could literally burn our bridges if we needed to, or chop off reasources that will be in enemy hands in the next turn without risking the lives of real fighting units.
I propose at least 1 explorer (or special forces unit if you will) for each invasion stack. But again, I could be crazy.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/explorers.php
It describes the use of explorers as "Special Operation Units."
Thought they could be useful, especially if we need to retreat for any reason and fight a defencive war, pillaging roads in that jungle would slow down advancing stacks, or secure parts of the line that are more vunerable to attack.
Also having a small force of explorers would divert enemy units to guard duty on reasources or waste their attacks as they chase them.
But I've never fought against another player, so maybe it is insanity. Maybe they expect it already
an explorer, in the right circumstances I believe can pillage 2 tiles (I know for a fact it can move after pillaging, I need to check the 2 pillages). We could literally burn our bridges if we needed to, or chop off reasources that will be in enemy hands in the next turn without risking the lives of real fighting units.
I propose at least 1 explorer (or special forces unit if you will) for each invasion stack. But again, I could be crazy.
azzaman333
meh
Explorers are a great idea! We can send them up to 5 tiles inside KISS territory regardless of terrain, and pilliage. Sure they are suicide units, but we can systematically pillage all kinds of stuff inside their territory for a cost of 20 shields. A stack of pilliage explores would be a great idea.
Oh, and WELCOME TO MIA!!!!
![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
Oh, and WELCOME TO MIA!!!!
If we're going to have some explorers, we need to produce them before we hit Mobilization.
Having read that article, I'd like to see us have about 10 explorers, operating in rough pairs. These could swarm out into KISS' land, pillaging the connections of their luxuries. I'd be more hesitant about pillaging roads, only because we'll need those roads as well. The Explorer Corps would indeed be suicide units, but for 200 shields we could do some pretty heavy damage.
Having read that article, I'd like to see us have about 10 explorers, operating in rough pairs. These could swarm out into KISS' land, pillaging the connections of their luxuries. I'd be more hesitant about pillaging roads, only because we'll need those roads as well. The Explorer Corps would indeed be suicide units, but for 200 shields we could do some pretty heavy damage.
Considering most of our late joiners don’t even post, it is great to have a new person who not only participates but comes up with a very good creative idea right away. Welcome!!
Of course, all new ideas must be put through the wringer to make sure they are the best thing to do. I have not used explorers an awful lot, so please correct any misinformation here, but here are what I see as the downsides of this plan:
1. Obviously, opportunity costs – more explorers means less of something else (cavalry? cannons?).
2. What do we hope to accomplish with our explorers? I am reasonably sure they can only pillage 1 tile per turn, which means we should probably expect to pillage 1 tile per explorer. Would we willingly give up 20 shields if it meant 1 of KISS’ improvements would be destroyed? Considering the only improvements we could destroy are those within 5 tiles of our border, I think probably not in general.
3. Sending explorers on suicide missions will increase our war weariness (may not be a big problem, but I thought I’d mention it for completeness).
4. This is the big one. I’m not sure, but I think when explorers are attacked they are captured, not killed. If we send 20 suicide explorers at KISS, then the following turn, we can expect 20 of our tiles to be pillaged. Of course, KISS can do this anyway by building their own explorers, but at least then they are the ones burning the shields. Possibly we can consider moving 2 tiles, then pillaging, then disbanding the explorer (I don’t think we can move more than 2 tiles if we want to have enough movement points both to pillage and disband), but that still seems like paying 20 shields for 1 (relatively useless) tile pillaged is too much.
So why might this still be a good idea? It might be worth building 1 explorer to take out KISS’ saltpeter on turn 1 of the war. Downsides?
Keep the ideas flowing!!
EDIT - an additional thought: KISS doesn't have Astronomy yet so they can't build their own explorers. I'm not sure what effect that has on attacked explorers - maybe they are destroyed like advanced artillery? Sounds like someone should do some explorer testing unless someone is already very familiar with all the nuances. Anyway, I'm not sure we should count on KISS not having Astronomy for long.
Of course, all new ideas must be put through the wringer to make sure they are the best thing to do. I have not used explorers an awful lot, so please correct any misinformation here, but here are what I see as the downsides of this plan:
1. Obviously, opportunity costs – more explorers means less of something else (cavalry? cannons?).
2. What do we hope to accomplish with our explorers? I am reasonably sure they can only pillage 1 tile per turn, which means we should probably expect to pillage 1 tile per explorer. Would we willingly give up 20 shields if it meant 1 of KISS’ improvements would be destroyed? Considering the only improvements we could destroy are those within 5 tiles of our border, I think probably not in general.
3. Sending explorers on suicide missions will increase our war weariness (may not be a big problem, but I thought I’d mention it for completeness).
4. This is the big one. I’m not sure, but I think when explorers are attacked they are captured, not killed. If we send 20 suicide explorers at KISS, then the following turn, we can expect 20 of our tiles to be pillaged. Of course, KISS can do this anyway by building their own explorers, but at least then they are the ones burning the shields. Possibly we can consider moving 2 tiles, then pillaging, then disbanding the explorer (I don’t think we can move more than 2 tiles if we want to have enough movement points both to pillage and disband), but that still seems like paying 20 shields for 1 (relatively useless) tile pillaged is too much.
So why might this still be a good idea? It might be worth building 1 explorer to take out KISS’ saltpeter on turn 1 of the war. Downsides?
- I’m not certain explorers can pillage colonies, but I don’t see why they couldn’t.
- KISS may have a lone unit on that mountain to protect it, in which case our explorer is useless.
- We may give KISS an idea that they wouldn’t think of on their own, and our luxuries are vulnerable.
- If KISS is building Leo’s (as I strongly suspect they are), then they may be planning to disconnect/connect the saltpeter regularly to build horseman and upgrade. If that is the case, then pillaging really won’t bother them at all – if we didn’t pillage, then they would have done it themselves.
- Dnuts may have 2 sources of saltpeter connected by then so KISS can get Dnut’s extra one.
Keep the ideas flowing!!
EDIT - an additional thought: KISS doesn't have Astronomy yet so they can't build their own explorers. I'm not sure what effect that has on attacked explorers - maybe they are destroyed like advanced artillery? Sounds like someone should do some explorer testing unless someone is already very familiar with all the nuances. Anyway, I'm not sure we should count on KISS not having Astronomy for long.
THEINFAMOUSPOPS
Chieftain
Chamnix brought up some good points.
In order to investigate this option I'll select a crack team of our best military men and do secret training excersizes to find the explorer's full capibilities. (I'll make a rough copy of the enemy map (based off our intel screen shots) and fool around with an explorer raid hotseat scenario)
I will test:
-Capture or destroyed
-1 or 2 pillages
-Colony pillaging
-Reasourses in reach on the first turn of invasion (hopefully I can make them out on the screenies we have)
Another thing is to think of them only as suicide units IF the pillaging is worth 20 shields. Otherwise they could be kept with the main stack for a quick low risk-high gain pillage oppertunity.
Another idea is to commisson a vessel to land several explorers on an unprotected front causing them to ether send units to guard reasources deep in their terrritory or divert vital military units to destroy them.
Maybe not a bad idea to send them to the other continent to limit some of their gains there.
We would stretch their military as thin as we could allowing a faster advance. Instead of 2 sectors where they need to mass troops, have it be 5 or 6.
But I'll give a full report after my testing... Thanks for the welcome!
Heck, during WW2 the USA spent alot of money on training pidgeons to guide bombs to enemy ships, so if thats worth investigating, this is.
In order to investigate this option I'll select a crack team of our best military men and do secret training excersizes to find the explorer's full capibilities. (I'll make a rough copy of the enemy map (based off our intel screen shots) and fool around with an explorer raid hotseat scenario)
I will test:
-Capture or destroyed
-1 or 2 pillages
-Colony pillaging
-Reasourses in reach on the first turn of invasion (hopefully I can make them out on the screenies we have)
Another thing is to think of them only as suicide units IF the pillaging is worth 20 shields. Otherwise they could be kept with the main stack for a quick low risk-high gain pillage oppertunity.
Another idea is to commisson a vessel to land several explorers on an unprotected front causing them to ether send units to guard reasources deep in their terrritory or divert vital military units to destroy them.
Maybe not a bad idea to send them to the other continent to limit some of their gains there.
We would stretch their military as thin as we could allowing a faster advance. Instead of 2 sectors where they need to mass troops, have it be 5 or 6.
But I'll give a full report after my testing... Thanks for the welcome!
Heck, during WW2 the USA spent alot of money on training pidgeons to guide bombs to enemy ships, so if thats worth investigating, this is.
THEINFAMOUSPOPS
Chieftain
RESULTS:
Explorers CANNOT pillage colonies. HOWEVER, they could destroy all the roads surrounding the colony, which would disable it regardless of wether its guarded or not.
Explorers ARE captured upon being attacked by a nation that has astromony. I'd assume they would be destroyed if not. It just makes sense, and I'm a little too lazy to make sure, but I will if asked to.
Explorers CAN ONLY pillage 1 tile per turn.
Explorers can of course pillage any reasource within 5 tiles of our borders provided they start their turn on the border.
I was suprised that they are captured... If Christopher Columbus was captured by the british would he have worked for them? I guess we can never know. I suppose Explorers have no sence of national pride and loyalty.
My recommendation:
I haven't seen a good view of the map (if someone could get me on the save game mailing list that'd be great,opopo1122@aol.com), but I'd suggest using as many explorers as it would take to destroy the roads around border colonies and keep 1-2 explorers with our main bodies of units.
Also maybe 3-4 to enter their territory and threaten any reasources in reach.
Lastly, maybe an assualt team fully loaded on a vessel to land behind their lines. But the revelation that they can be captured makes me nervous. but since they lack the technology to use them, it may not be a problem.
As far as giving them a useful idea to use against us, hopefully they'll need to focus on real military units to survive, and won't have luxury of building Special Forces units.
Thoughts?
Explorers CANNOT pillage colonies. HOWEVER, they could destroy all the roads surrounding the colony, which would disable it regardless of wether its guarded or not
.Explorers ARE captured upon being attacked by a nation that has astromony. I'd assume they would be destroyed if not. It just makes sense, and I'm a little too lazy to make sure, but I will if asked to.
Explorers CAN ONLY pillage 1 tile per turn.
Explorers can of course pillage any reasource within 5 tiles of our borders provided they start their turn on the border.
I was suprised that they are captured... If Christopher Columbus was captured by the british would he have worked for them? I guess we can never know. I suppose Explorers have no sence of national pride and loyalty.
My recommendation:
I haven't seen a good view of the map (if someone could get me on the save game mailing list that'd be great,opopo1122@aol.com), but I'd suggest using as many explorers as it would take to destroy the roads around border colonies and keep 1-2 explorers with our main bodies of units.
Also maybe 3-4 to enter their territory and threaten any reasources in reach.
Lastly, maybe an assualt team fully loaded on a vessel to land behind their lines. But the revelation that they can be captured makes me nervous. but since they lack the technology to use them, it may not be a problem.
As far as giving them a useful idea to use against us, hopefully they'll need to focus on real military units to survive, and won't have luxury of building Special Forces units.
Thoughts?
Thanks for doing that POPS (can I call you POPS?).
Unfortunately, in my opinion the fact that they can be captured is a deal-breaker. If KISS has Astronomy, then we gain absolutely nothing by building explorers - for every tile we pillage, they get to pillage one of ours. KISS lacks Astronomy right now, but they could research it anytime, and it probably won't take that long for them to get it. I would hate to waste a lot of shields building units that turn out to give us no advantage at all.
Anyone else have an opinion?
Unfortunately, in my opinion the fact that they can be captured is a deal-breaker. If KISS has Astronomy, then we gain absolutely nothing by building explorers - for every tile we pillage, they get to pillage one of ours. KISS lacks Astronomy right now, but they could research it anytime, and it probably won't take that long for them to get it. I would hate to waste a lot of shields building units that turn out to give us no advantage at all.
Anyone else have an opinion?
THEINFAMOUSPOPS
Chieftain
with the capture rule and after veiwing the map first hand from the save game, I'm less excited about the explorers.
Do we have an idea of where our assualt is going to focus?
also classical hero brought up the question about a navy. assuming KISS has a considerable portion of their army overseas, it may be a good idea to build some frigates asap and destroy any attempt to recall those forces. hopefully take some of those units out while they are loaded on the transport.
It would also give our sailors battle experiance for the unavoidable Doughnutian conflict. (assuming we kill off KISS)
And Yes, you can call me Pops, no need to for caps.
Do we have an idea of where our assualt is going to focus?
also classical hero brought up the question about a navy. assuming KISS has a considerable portion of their army overseas, it may be a good idea to build some frigates asap and destroy any attempt to recall those forces. hopefully take some of those units out while they are loaded on the transport.
It would also give our sailors battle experiance for the unavoidable Doughnutian conflict. (assuming we kill off KISS)
And Yes, you can call me Pops, no need to for caps.
fe3333au
Deity
Since the catapult has a name ... shall we also christen our Trebs??
classical_hero
In whom I trust
I will come up with a strategy tomorrow and what our objecits should be for the up coming war. Make that Sunday. 
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Here are some posible plans that we could have in attacking KISS. I think that removing their source of of saltpeter should be a number one target of our because if they do not have access to it then they cannot build Cavs and since they do not have chivalry, their best attackers would then be MDIs, which will be good for us, so this is a very attractive target for us to get to. But how to do it. There are two ways for us to disconnect their source of Saltpeter.
1. We could use suicide explorers to do this and pillage any roads that are connected to the saltpeter thus removing them of their only source, this is of course assuming that Dnuts are also at war with KISS as they have promised. Thus they will have no access to Saltpeter, thus this will make them vunerable to our attacks and this will also make them want to go for our saltpeter which make want to portect that area a bit, but I think that since we will be railed at that time, whould be able to protect that area by having a mobile attack.
2. We could use our military to take over their city and pillage the actual source and have some defenders on that source so that it unaccessable for them. This could be after the first stage or by itself.
This is only one part of the plan, I must get some sleep.
1. We could use suicide explorers to do this and pillage any roads that are connected to the saltpeter thus removing them of their only source, this is of course assuming that Dnuts are also at war with KISS as they have promised. Thus they will have no access to Saltpeter, thus this will make them vunerable to our attacks and this will also make them want to go for our saltpeter which make want to portect that area a bit, but I think that since we will be railed at that time, whould be able to protect that area by having a mobile attack.
2. We could use our military to take over their city and pillage the actual source and have some defenders on that source so that it unaccessable for them. This could be after the first stage or by itself.
This is only one part of the plan, I must get some sleep.
I offer a couple of observations, understanding that you have not finished your post above:
Denying KISS access to that mountain Saltpeter assumes they have no other source. We cannot see all of their tiles, so we can't be positive that there is not a second (or third) source available to them. However, this is not a reason to despair and write-off the advantages to be gained by denying KISS a powerful military unit.
Secondly, as others have pointed out, we will likely find their Saltpeter to be heavily defended by the time we get units within range. Our stack is vulnerable to attack on the turn before we bombard their positions. If this is KISS's only source, we will certainly encounter massive defenses.
KISS will understandably be expecting an attack towards their Saltpeter. By moving in a different direction, and bypassing that resource, we could strike a faster, deeper wound, with fewer losses on our side.
I offer these points in the interest of discussion and analysis
Denying KISS access to that mountain Saltpeter assumes they have no other source. We cannot see all of their tiles, so we can't be positive that there is not a second (or third) source available to them. However, this is not a reason to despair and write-off the advantages to be gained by denying KISS a powerful military unit.
Secondly, as others have pointed out, we will likely find their Saltpeter to be heavily defended by the time we get units within range. Our stack is vulnerable to attack on the turn before we bombard their positions. If this is KISS's only source, we will certainly encounter massive defenses.
KISS will understandably be expecting an attack towards their Saltpeter. By moving in a different direction, and bypassing that resource, we could strike a faster, deeper wound, with fewer losses on our side.
I offer these points in the interest of discussion and analysis
azzaman333
meh
Id say that we should send a suicide explorer or 2 just to check the defenses at the salts. Of course, we can go undetected if we only send them 5 moves, then disband.
I'm not a big fan of the suicide explorer approach. I don't think there is any value in disconnecting their saltpeter temporarily. Considering they are probably building Leo's, they may be planning on disconnecting/reconnecting their saltpeter anyway, and our doing it for them for a turn or two is ineffective.
Permanently removing their source of saltpeter is much more appealing (assuming Dnuts aren't going to provide their spare), but to do that, we have to take Wilde Side at least. When we are ready to attack, we can investigate that town to determine if we want to take that route.
Permanently removing their source of saltpeter is much more appealing (assuming Dnuts aren't going to provide their spare), but to do that, we have to take Wilde Side at least. When we are ready to attack, we can investigate that town to determine if we want to take that route.
fe3333au
Deity
I'm also not a big fan of the explorer (unless they are shipping to a far corner to niggle the KISS) basically because they can be captured.
azzaman333
meh
I was saying to send the explorer to check the defence. Also, move him only 5 spaces so he can use his last 1/3 movement point to disband and prevent capture.
