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Term 8 - The Triumvirate

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Demo Game: Citizens' started by ice2k4, Aug 3, 2006.

  1. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Chieftain

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    Location:
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    The Triumvirate

    President Ice2k4
    Secretary of State Robboo
    Secretary of War Oldbus

    Why am I here?

    I have moved this thread to the citizen's forum to increase discussion and participation. Here you can find a centralized thread for all issues going on, instead of having to browse various threads.

    Procedures:

    The President or his assigned deputy will maintain the discussion in this thread. This post will contain a list of various current discussions updated after every turnchat. The following three posts will contain each member of the Triumvirate's views, which they will post in this thread. The President will copy and paste their views and also update them in the following three posts. The citizens may posts their views and discuss at any time, and do not have to wait for the Triumvirate to respond first (rather then the way this was conducted last term.) All matters subject to poll will be polled, and this is not an attempt to undermine our Constitution and CoL.


    Current Discussions:

    1. Trade with Alexander
    2. Army against Berlin.
    3. City garrisons.
    4. Where to send the GS to build an academy.
    5. Attacking Germany and Game Victory.

    Current Decisions:

    Past Discussions & Decisions
    [spoiler="Term 8 - Triumvirate Discussion 1]

    Current Discussions:

    1. Military composition
    2. Economy
    3. Technology
    4. Exploration
    5. German war goals
    6. Religion
    7. Specialization
    8. Mobilization
    9 Consolidation of government

    Current Decisions:
    1. The current Triumvirate will push for the production of more offensive units, war or no war.
    2. No decision yet. Will be brought up next discussion,
    3. No decision due to the appearance of a Great Scientist
    4. The current Triumvirate is pro-exploration. It is definetly agreed we need atleast one caravel built in Micilian's Gate to sail east north east. We would also like to see a second caravel built following the first to sail south east, however if the govorner feels the city can not handle it, we will not try and force it upon the city.
    5. War goals are unsure atm, however it does seem like the general public would like to see an offensive launched in the next 20-30 turns.
    6. Islam seems like a slingshot. It may be possible to get now that we have a great scientist, but we would like Daveshack to discuss the options next discussion.
    7. Specilization is needed, and seems fine at the moment. No worries here.
    8. Not needed atm.
    9. Realignment of states and MoC ammendment should do the trick. However I am asking the tri if they agree on a temporary decree until the ammendment is passed.[/spoiler]
     
  2. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Chieftain

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    Reserved for the views of the President.

    Views on Current Discussions
    1. I am pro for the current trade which is being polled. This matter is now out of my hands.

    2. I trust our SoW to make up the decision for military composition.

    3. Another decisoin for the SoW, however I recommend we leace atleast three archery units per city and possibly 4 in the cities along the front.

    4. I have to check the save and I will update this point.

    5. I agree that we should wait to see the political stance of the new civilizations towards Germany before we attack.

    I also agree that space and culture wont happen, or domination or conquesty will work either becasue we have a pretty weak economy, and were behind in techs.

    A diplomatic victory is likely, but we would have to make sure that we get the civs from the "new world" to hate Germany early. Trade emargos against the Germans would help a bit. (Or does the civ have to have a current trade with Germany for us to ask?)

    Even if, we wont be elidgble for Secetary General unless we build it. This means a pretty direct path towards Mass Media, and we would have to save the first Great Engineer we get (if we even get one.)

    Past Views on Past Discussions

    Spoiler Views on Term 8 - Triumvirate Discussion 1 :

    1. At the moment the I believe in the SoW to decide our military composition, since I am not able to view the save at the time. However this is subject to change and will be updated.

    2. Our economy is in serious trouble. This war isn't helping us much either. We are currently at 30% science (70% tax rate) and we are losing 1 gold. I would like to see us drop the science rate to 0% for four turns (for military upgrades and of course to save some money.) However if I legally drop the science rate by 30% to 0% we will not be able to increase the science rate until 10 turns (in which we can only incresae it by 10%) We will then have to wait 2 more sets of 10 turns to get it back to 30% where we would be losing 1 gold, in which technically I could increase the sience rate up to 60% (increase by 30%) as the CoL does not specify which way I change the taxes in the time of a shortfall. This means we either need an ammendment (a speedy one at that) or another solution. I do not see it beneficial to keep the rate at which it is, due to the amount of beakers lost due to rounding. I would like to see both the SoS and SoW elaborate on their views in this matter. Also I would be glad if I heard the citizen's voice.

    3. Oh boy. We have 10 turns until we complete Feudalism. If we use my propsoed plan above we would be able to do a lot of upgrades and still save enough money to increse the science rate to 60% or so, where the whole process would take about 10 turns anyway. This way we upgrade troops and we still dont take a huge hit on techs. After Fuedalism I see it logical to go for Civil Service, becasue it provides macemen for our defense, and one of my most favored civics, bueracracy. It would be great if the Minister of Science elaborated on a research path.

    4. Well this isnt really that tough if you think about it. I cant play the save at the moment, but don't we have optics, which means we have caravels. I propose Micilians Gate builds a caravel as soon as possible, so not only can we meet new civs, but we can gain one movement point at sea if we circumnavigate first. Seeing that the civilizations overseas are probablly more advanced then our continent, we may want to control the seas, and I have found that in my experience circumnavigation is a huge advantage. It doesnt take that many frigates to build a line in the middle of the sea for us to see every ship that passes. And if we do find ourselves under attack by a civilization from the other continent, with +1 movement we could outrun frigates with galleons that may carry our troops and most importantly sink their galleons transporting attacking troops to Licentia. It shouldnt be the hardest thing to do, but if someone can fill me in a little on the production over at MG.

    5. At the moment we need peace, and thats what were getting. I do not think we will be able to build up an army to take Berlin after 10 turns.

    6. I'm not sure, but was Islam founded yet? Either way I don't think were going to get it unless Chip blesses us with a great prophet.

    7. Another issue I may need to check the save for, but then again, I think we sorted this out for the most part last term. If we do agree upon my view towards exploration it is possible MG will be used as a naval city.

    8. Not needed, especially since were getting peace.

    9. If the triumvirate agrees we will decree for the second consecutive term to yield the powers of the Minister of Culture to other officials until an ammendment is passed. Also the states will be realigned. I beleive though that we should have three states, and of course Boaring Wallow. This will seriously consolidate the government. I will come up with a proposal for realignment asap. (even though there probablly is one already.)
     
  3. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Chieftain

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    Reserved for the views of the Secetary of State.

    Views on Current Discussions
    I AGREE
    1. Trade yes as i suggested
    2. We need to watch and make sure Alex is not great buddies with Bismark before we do any attacks.
    3. minimum of an archery unit per city.

    5.I agree that we should wait to see the political stance of the new civilizations towards Germany before we attack.

    I also agree that space and culture wont happen, or domination or conquesty will work either becasue we have a pretty weak economy, and were behind in techs.

    A diplomatic victory is likely, but we would have to make sure that we get the civs from the "new world" to hate Germany early. Trade emargos against the Germans would help a bit. (Or does the civ have to have a current trade with Germany for us to ask?)

    Even if, we wont be elidgble for Secetary General unless we build it. This means a pretty direct path towards Mass Media, and we would have to save the first Great Engineer we get (if we even get one.)

    Past Views on Past Discussions

    Spoiler Views on Term 8 - Triumvirate Discussion 1 :

    1. Military composition
    More offenisve units if we plan to attack. A few caravels to sail around the world

    2. Economy
    Sucks. Courthouses needed. Sci rate high unless we need to upgrade units

    3. Technology
    Go get CS, then figure out what we need. Paper for maps would help us get the around the world quicker

    4. Exploration
    Caravels to find the others. It woud be good to have paper too

    5. German war goals
    Peace tehn take cities. I suggest gogin threw Russia and attackign south to try adn draw off forces from teh north.

    6. Religion
    not needed unless it spreads here

    7. Specialization
    We should and I think Sigma had some ideas

    8. Mobilization
    Like last term...dont wait till its too late if people dont become governors. Declare it and then get the orders in. use it if we go back to war and have "misssing offices".

    9 Consolidation of government
    Yes on culture office...kill it. And the states will help
     
  4. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Chieftain

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    Reserved for the views of the Secetary of War.

    Views on Current Discussions
    1. Trade with Alexander suggested by robboo - see thread
    2. Army against Berlin. I think we're still short of quite a few units to attempt Berlin - especially cats, axes and swords. We're not building many units at the moment. Should we step up the military unit production? I think we could be more than 10 turns away from attempting a strike on Berlin. Maybe we should wait for Alexander to contact Bismarck. If they are big buddies then an attack on Bismarck might not be a good idea.
    3. City garrisons. I think we need to make sure that all cities have a garrison - this means the city at 'red dot' and Micalian's Gate. Could be embarrassing if Alex or Bismarck lands some troops there.
    4. We've still to decide where to send the GS to build the Academy



    I think we MUST decide the following before starting the next TC:

    1. Do we do the trade with Alex for Mono & CS? And then use GS to get Paper?

    2. Our strategy for the next 15 turns or so.

    One possible way to go:

    Go for increased unit building to finish preparations for a Berlin strike if we want one (and to catch up a bit on power). The trick is to avoid our economy tanking. My ideas:

    * not to switch tiles that citizens are working (so we don't lose commerce by going for prodn, for example)
    * switch to Vasselage (no anarchy). We get extra experience points. It will cost us 6 gold per turn, but vasselage gives us 12 free units. I assume this will reduce the 16 gold we are currently paying for units (does it reduce it by 12?)
    * spread workers around cities to chop at least one forest per city (almost all cities have plenty of forest)
    * use the whip where appropriate: Abydos has -2 happness citizens, BW has -1 happiness and -1 health, NPC has -1 happiness and MG and Auda City both have 0 happiness


    I think if we do this then in 15 or so turns we could have most of the units we need plus some other buildings we are constructing like courthouses and aqueducts. This will be quite a boost for us. Once we have done that then we can switch to Barbarism and Serfdom and get improvements faster and we should have enough gold to run at 40% research for 10 turns which will boost our tech as well.

    If things work out well with Alexander and we go for Berlin and are not too unlucky, then we could be looking much stronger by the time this term ends.

    What do you think?


    Other notes:

    Fort Impervious (my old home): we now have Globe Theatre, but we're not using any GP. We also don't have a lot of health points to play with, so I recommend slowing growth by converting 2 citizens to Artists. These would be 2 of the citizens working a 3F1C farm. We would lose 2 commerce, but get 2 beakers in return plus 6 GPP. We need to clear more jungle which will allow us a pop growth of 2 should we choose it.

    Given the excess of food when all farms are worked, we can control pop growth quite easily. We may also choose to whip a citizen when we are closer to constructing the courthouse. Remember FI citizens will not be unhappy.

    Past Views on Past Discussions

    Spoiler Views on Term 8 - Triumvirate Discussion 1 :

    1. Military composition

    Depends upon 5 - war goals. However, we must keep producing units so we don't fall behind again.

    2. Economy

    I think the Governors need to co-ordinate carefully so that some cities are building units and others building courthouses and other economic buildings. Careful swapping of which city is doing what is required. However, I don't really see Auda City (too little production) or Fort Impervious (I think this should be a GP city) producing units.

    3. Technology

    I think CS is next obvious goal. I'm not quite sure what we'll get from the GS we've just produced. Needs some discussion.

    4. Exploration

    MG is already producing a caravel and I think it should produce another one straight away so we can send them in opposite directions.

    5. German war goals

    Although I am SoW I worry that I'm not certain about what the war aims should be. Partly this is because I see the post of SoW to lead in managing any war and defence and all the units and logistics. I see my job is to tell everyone how I think it is and what I think will be and let the people decide to war or not. I think this is what our CoL was aiming for.

    The problem as I see it is that we can't crush Germany, so if we continue the war a city is the obvious target. Hamburg is a bit of a nightmare to get to. Dortmund is fairly lightly defended, but is only worth razing. This would be quite feasible - epsecially with robboo's suggestion of a southward party. The rest of the cities apart from Berlin are too far south.

    That leaves Berlin. It would be a nice capture. However, can we do it? I reckon 15-20 is the minimum we need before we can attack. If we go into full military mode by then to produce replacements for 5-8 turns we might pull it off. However, we will lose a *lot* of units, leaving us quite weak - and there are no guarantees we will capture it. It is a risky plan.

    However, the citizens seem to be in favour, so that is what I've planned for. I would like to play another 10 turns, see how we look and then get citizen approval via a poll for an attack plan.

    6. Religion

    I don't think there is much to say here! There has been no realistic chance of getting a religion for a long time. We will have to wait for contact from another continent before worrying about religion.

    7. Specialization

    I think Fort Impervious should be a GP farm. Possibly BW should be science? We have a GS now, so it is a timely discussion. OS has a lot of hills not being mined. Abydos has a lot of grassland and fresh water so should be able to hold a number of cottages. Const Falls has a lot of the same, plus a lot of forest for chopping. Once the new city has grown, it will have a lot of hills, plus the fish. Can't remember if it'll get the corn.

    8. Mobilization

    I don't think we need to do that just yet. Let's see how things pan out once the states are re-aligned. I think we've got good governors. Having been a governor myself, I know how easy it is just to focus on making the best of your city without looking at the big picture, but I have confidence in our governors.

    If I'm short of troops for a German offensive, you can be sure I'll shout

    9 Consolidation of government

    This seems to be progressing and I'm in favour. The lack of applicants for MoI shows that it is right to get rid of that post. The state realignment seems to be going ahead. I'll be glad to see only 3 governors plus mayors.
     
  5. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Is this meant to be the government thread? If so, you can ask a mod to move it to the government forum. ;)
     
  6. robboo

    robboo Chieftain

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    Dave..its a discussion thread.

    Ice...Good move putting it here since last term my thread like this flamed out quick. I will post my ideas on this tomorrow.
     
  7. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Chieftain

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    Yeh its meant to be here
     
  8. robboo

    robboo Chieftain

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    1. Military composition
    More offenisve units if we plan to attack. A few caravels to sail around the world

    2. Economy
    Sucks. Courthouses needed. Sci rate high unless we need to upgrade units

    3. Technology
    Go get CS, then figure out what we need. Paper for maps would help us get the around the world quicker

    4. Exploration
    Caravels to find the others. It woud be good to have paper too

    5. German war goals
    Peace tehn take cities. I suggest gogin threw Russia and attackign south to try adn draw off forces from teh north.

    6. Religion
    not needed unless it spreads here

    7. Specialization
    We should and I think Sigma had some ideas

    8. Mobilization
    Like last term...dont wait till its too late if people dont become governors. Declare it and then get the orders in. use it if we go back to war and have "misssing offices".

    9 Consolidation of government
    Yes on culture office...kill it. And the states will help



    Thanks for continuing this, its the one good idea I had last term.. Maybe by moving it here you will have more discussion.
     
  9. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Chieftain

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    Well didn't get that much input from the citizens this discussion. However after this turnchat ends I will bring up another disucssion.
     
  10. Oldbus

    Oldbus Chief of Confusion

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    Sorry it's taken me so long to reply.

    1. Military composition

    Depends upon 5 - war goals. However, we must keep producing units so we don't fall behind again.

    2. Economy

    I think the Governors need to co-ordinate carefully so that some cities are building units and others building courthouses and other economic buildings. Careful swapping of which city is doing what is required. However, I don't really see Auda City (too little production) or Fort Impervious (I think this should be a GP city) producing units.

    3. Technology

    I think CS is next obvious goal. I'm not quite sure what we'll get from the GS we've just produced. Needs some discussion.

    4. Exploration

    MG is already producing a caravel and I think it should produce another one straight away so we can send them in opposite directions.

    5. German war goals

    Although I am SoW I worry that I'm not certain about what the war aims should be. Partly this is because I see the post of SoW to lead in managing any war and defence and all the units and logistics. I see my job is to tell everyone how I think it is and what I think will be and let the people decide to war or not. I think this is what our CoL was aiming for.

    The problem as I see it is that we can't crush Germany, so if we continue the war a city is the obvious target. Hamburg is a bit of a nightmare to get to. Dortmund is fairly lightly defended, but is only worth razing. This would be quite feasible - epsecially with robboo's suggestion of a southward party. The rest of the cities apart from Berlin are too far south.

    That leaves Berlin. It would be a nice capture. However, can we do it? I reckon 15-20 is the minimum we need before we can attack. If we go into full military mode by then to produce replacements for 5-8 turns we might pull it off. However, we will lose a *lot* of units, leaving us quite weak - and there are no guarantees we will capture it. It is a risky plan.

    However, the citizens seem to be in favour, so that is what I've planned for. I would like to play another 10 turns, see how we look and then get citizen approval via a poll for an attack plan.

    6. Religion

    I don't think there is much to say here! There has been no realistic chance of getting a religion for a long time. We will have to wait for contact from another continent before worrying about religion.

    7. Specialization

    I think Fort Impervious should be a GP farm. Possibly BW should be science? We have a GS now, so it is a timely discussion. OS has a lot of hills not being mined. Abydos has a lot of grassland and fresh water so should be able to hold a number of cottages. Const Falls has a lot of the same, plus a lot of forest for chopping. Once the new city has grown, it will have a lot of hills, plus the fish. Can't remember if it'll get the corn.

    8. Mobilization

    I don't think we need to do that just yet. Let's see how things pan out once the states are re-aligned. I think we've got good governors. Having been a governor myself, I know how easy it is just to focus on making the best of your city without looking at the big picture, but I have confidence in our governors.

    If I'm short of troops for a German offensive, you can be sure I'll shout :mischief:

    9 Consolidation of government

    This seems to be progressing and I'm in favour. The lack of applicants for MoI shows that it is right to get rid of that post. The state realignment seems to be going ahead. I'll be glad to see only 3 governors plus mayors.
     
  11. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Chieftain

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    Discussion 1 closed.
    Discussion 2 open.
     
  12. Oldbus

    Oldbus Chief of Confusion

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    More points to discuss:

    1. Trade with Alexander suggested by robboo - see thread
    2. Army against Berlin. I think we're still short of quite a few units to attempt Berlin - especially cats, axes and swords. We're not building many units at the moment. Should we step up the military unit production? I think we could be more than 10 turns away from attempting a strike on Berlin. Maybe we should wait for Alexander to contact Bismarck. If they are big buddies then an attack on Bismarck might not be a good idea.
    3. City garrisons. I think we need to make sure that all cities have a garrison - this means the city at 'red dot' and Micalian's Gate. Could be embarrassing if Alex or Bismarck lands some troops there.
    4. We've still to decide where to send the GS to build the Academy
     
  13. robboo

    robboo Chieftain

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    I AGREE
    1. Trade yes as i suggested
    2. We need to watch and make sure Alex is not great buddies with Bismark before we do any attacks.
    3. minimum of an archery unit per city.
     
  14. Oldbus

    Oldbus Chief of Confusion

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    More thoughts...

    I think we MUST decide the following before starting the next TC:

    1. Do we do the trade with Alex for Mono & CS? And then use GS to get Paper?

    2. Our strategy for the next 15 turns or so.

    One possible way to go:

    Go for increased unit building to finish preparations for a Berlin strike if we want one (and to catch up a bit on power). The trick is to avoid our economy tanking. My ideas:

    • not to switch tiles that citizens are working (so we don't lose commerce by going for prodn, for example)
    • switch to Vasselage (no anarchy). We get extra experience points. It will cost us 6 gold per turn, but vasselage gives us 12 free units. I assume this will reduce the 16 gold we are currently paying for units (does it reduce it by 12?)
    • spread workers around cities to chop at least one forest per city (almost all cities have plenty of forest)
    • use the whip where appropriate: Abydos has -2 happness citizens, BW has -1 happiness and -1 health, NPC has -1 happiness and MG and Auda City both have 0 happiness

    I think if we do this then in 15 or so turns we could have most of the units we need plus some other buildings we are constructing like courthouses and aqueducts. This will be quite a boost for us. Once we have done that then we can switch to Barbarism and Serfdom and get improvements faster and we should have enough gold to run at 40% research for 10 turns which will boost our tech as well.

    If things work out well with Alexander and we go for Berlin and are not too unlucky, then we could be looking much stronger by the time this term ends.

    What do you think?


    Other notes:

    Fort Impervious (my old home): we now have Globe Theatre, but we're not using any GP. We also don't have a lot of health points to play with, so I recommend slowing growth by converting 2 citizens to Artists. These would be 2 of the citizens working a 3F1C farm. We would lose 2 commerce, but get 2 beakers in return plus 6 GPP. We need to clear more jungle which will allow us a pop growth of 2 should we choose it.

    Given the excess of food when all farms are worked, we can control pop growth quite easily. We may also choose to whip a citizen when we are closer to constructing the courthouse. Remember FI citizens will not be unhappy.
     
  15. robboo

    robboo Chieftain

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    I posted for Dave to post a poll....AND to revisit the GS poll.
     
  16. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Chieftain

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    I updated all views and the current discussions.
     
  17. dutchfire

    dutchfire Moderator Moderator

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    Dear Tri-members,
    I would like to hear your opinions on our future plans concerning Germany. It would also be great if you tried starting up a poll to ask the citizens what they think about our long term plans.
     
  18. robboo

    robboo Chieftain

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    I think we need to sit on our hands a bit. Figure out how Alex is going to react to Germany. This early trade will boost our relations. I think its time to figure out the "world political pecking order" before we attack anyone. I think exploration of teh sea is the most important "military" option right now.

    Long term...got a lot closer. We need to figure out whats our nations destiny is...soon.

    IF we decide to go the long term political route we need to start racing towards the UN tech. We cant out tech anyone so far so we willhav eto beat them by having a focused direction.

    You have 2 military optionsfor long term.. domination or conquest. One require killing everyone other requites controllign more than anyone. Both are starting to slip away with Conquest..being all but gone since we cannot out tech anyone. Domination became harder by Alex finding us....he may decide to help our continental rivals.

    Space..unlikely. Tech issue again.

    Culture unlikely...no religion
     
  19. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Chieftain

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    I agree that we should wait to see the political stance of the new civilizations towards Germany before we attack.

    I also agree that space and culture wont happen, or domination or conquesty will work either becasue we have a pretty weak economy, and were behind in techs.

    A diplomatic victory is likely, but we would have to make sure that we get the civs from the "new world" to hate Germany early. Trade emargos against the Germans would help a bit. (Or does the civ have to have a current trade with Germany for us to ask?)

    Even if, we wont be elidgble for Secetary General unless we build it. This means a pretty direct path towards Mass Media, and we would have to save the first Great Engineer we get (if we even get one.)
     
  20. dutchfire

    dutchfire Moderator Moderator

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    Or chop it, pop-rush it, or cash-rush it.
     

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