Terra maps, are they racist?

[timcrewgreen]

on terra maps, the native americans can start in italy, among other random combinations, so no.

This misses the point. My issue is that colonised people are implied to be barbarians

 

[Lone Wolf]

That's just what I mean though. Who is this new world new to? European colonialists. It's not the new world to the people that lived there, the supposed barbarians. There should be a map script that mirrors the experience of being colonised, just for balance

Not necessary European. Just to civilization-filled continent. Which can be filled with Atzecs, Incans and Native Americans if you want to.

This misses the point. My issue is that colonised people are implied to be barbarians

Diplomacy is impossible with them and they're hostile to every Civ. Therefore, as per Civilization definition, they're barbarians.

 

[timcrewgreen]

Not necessary European. Just to civilization-filled continent. Which can be filled with Atzecs, Incans and Native Americans if you want to.



Diplomacy is impossible with them and they're hostile to every Civ. Therefore, as per Civilization definition, they're barbarians.

They are only hostile because they are made so by the game designers. It is implied to be realistic. So are all invaded people's inherently diplomatically unreasonable? Or do you think it might just be that they are slightly annoyed about systematic genocide?

 

[Lone Wolf]

It is implied to be realistic.

It's not. Civ is supposed to be a very rough approximation of reality, not a realistic history stimulator. That honor goes to stuff like Rhye's and Fall, or Europa Universalis' Magna Mundi mod or something.

Actually, I don't like that a realistic colonialism experience is usually absent in Civ, especially on non-Terra maps. But it's hard to stimulate with default rules.

 

[timcrewgreen]

It's not. Civ is supposed to be a very rough approximation of reality, not a realistic history stimulator. That honor goes to stuff like Europa Universalis Magna Mundi mod or something.

Sorry, I meant terra maps are meant to be a vaguely realistic approximation of one "civilised" old world and one "new world", with all that that expression implies

 

[Lone Wolf]

Exactly. Vague approximation of realism, not realism.

Stuff that is supposed to be more of a history simulator represents the issue more in detail (like, in RFC you can play the Mayas, Atzecs and Incans, and if you play them, when the Old World civs find you, they get a bunch of units on your soil, and you get the "plague", which simulates the smallpox. With some luck and preparation, it's possible to defeat these conquistadors).

 

[timcrewgreen]

I think colonialism should be possible, because it is up to the player to make his/her moral choices. But I don't think the way it is represented in this game is very politically correct.

Just for the recored political correctness = generally a good thing

 

[timcrewgreen]

Exactly. Vague approximation of realism, not realism.

I'm just saying it could be more...subtle and sensitive

 

[kochman]

Let me explain my position here. I am interested a little in postcolonial theory, and part of what that works to dispell is the attitude that certain people are "uncivilised" until somehow straightened out by European powers. I take the point about some civilisations being more advanced than others, but to imply those that haven't urbanised themselves to any massive degree are backwards and worthy of the label 'barbarian' which implies bloodthirsty, smelly, uneducated warmonger is just wrong and historically innaccurate (even if it is for convenience). Also, aren't we supposed to be rewriting history here? Maybe calling it racist is a bit harsh because I enjoy this game as much as the next person, but I think it bears thinking about, even if for just a second.

I think you are confusing this game with something where morals, norms, etc. should be considered. It's a game, nothing more.

 

[timcrewgreen]

I think you are confusing this game with something where morals, norms, etc. should be considered. It's a game, nothing more.

Why shouldn't issues be senstively handled by the game developers? It deals with real world history. People have a right to be offended

 

[Lone Wolf]

I'm just saying it could be more...subtle and sensitive

Well, the New World native peoples aren't the only thing barbarians represent, so I'm fine with it. "Barbarian" in Civ is a very general term, so it's not like the colonised natives are singled out as "barbarians".

 

[timcrewgreen]

Barbarian is not a politically neutral term in any context. It has very specific connotations

 

[kochman]

I think what he is aiming for is a civ where barbarians are called independent, as he deems barbarian to be insulting.
PC going into overdrive, basically.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Barbarian is not a politically neutral term in any context. It has very specific connotations

Dunno, personally I fail to see why it's bad to talk about barbarian tribes destroying the Western Roman Empire.

 

[timcrewgreen]

Dunno, personally I fail to see why it's bad to talk about barbarian tribes destroying the Western Roman Empire.

Because it's an unnecessary categorisation that implies a general lack of culture, although I do take you point that in that context it is generally an accepted term. I'm more referring to the post-colonial usage of the term

 

[timcrewgreen]

I think what he is aiming for is a civ where barbarians are called independent, as he deems barbarian to be insulting.
PC going into overdrive, basically.

Is think its a racist term. Who has the right to tell me i can't be offended by that? There are some other unsavoury words that people still use that were once considered absolutely fine. Also, it's just my opinion

 

[Lone Wolf]

Because it's an unnecessary categorisation that implies a general lack of culture, although I do take you point that in that context it is generally an accepted term. I'm more referring to the post-colonial usage of the term

In Civ, "barbarians" are a very generalized group that doesn't really imply anything besides being a threat to Civilizations. In fact, they mainly act more or less as actual barbarians, being a threat to civs in early ages. Them being sorta natives in Terra script is more of a consequence of already established mechanics of barb spawning. Why establish a "new world natives" mechanics in Terra maps, while already existing Barbarian mechanics can roughly simulate that stuff? Besides, the term "barbarians" wasn't often used in context of colonialism anyway. "Savages" or something like that was the term.

 

[timcrewgreen]

Well, I've said my part. I think it's been a decent debate, but I'm ready to let it wither and die now!

This doesn't mean I admit defeat!

 

[kochman]

Is think its a racist term. Who has the right to tell me i can't be offended by that? There are some other unsavoury words that people still use that were once considered absolutely fine. Also, it's just my opinion

I don't think anyone is telling you that you can't be offended... but people have been telling you it is kind of silly to be offended.
I say, more power to you. If this is a problem in your life, then you have a pretty good life. Most of us have bigger fish to fry than to worry about the moral implications of calling barbarians of any race barbarians...

 

[timcrewgreen]

It's not a problem in my life at all, I was just curious as to what the civ community thought about it. Pretty much everybody has disagreed with me and I've tried to explain why I think they are wrong! It's just something to do