Terrain Actions!

[Eyeoftiger]

Good ideas, Jonax. I support the idea of units potentially dying when in hostile terrain (desert, tundra, etc.) in the same way that galleys can potentially be lost at sea. It would seem to be easily implementable too...

Units CAN die in inhospitable terrain in CivIII. Fortify a unit in the desert or jungle and leave him there. He will eventually die. I've seen it happened (it happened to an ARMY of mine, and I was pissed off!), so I never fortify units for long periods of time in the desert or jungle.

 

[sir_schwick]

i've never seen it

 

[eromrab]

i have... and i know i read in the directions that you could... i think it's conquests though...

 

[yoshi]

Okay let me be even clearer:

An army is a whole bunch of guys, horses, artillery, tanks, whatever. A ship is just one ship (in Civ3's implied proportions). You can lose a ship immediately whereas armies are slowly worn down so that you have fewer and fewer guys. The only way you could lose a whole group instantly is if a volcano goes off right next to it or a plague spreads through the ranks. Otherwise, losing the whole group is odd. From a gameplay perspective, ground units win or lose the game, not naval or air units; losing a ground unit hurts the player a lot more than losing a ship does.

The reason why I'm insisting about this is because I can just picture designers at MS saying, 'well, it's easier to just delete a unit than come out with a system of unit health-loss so why not kill two birds with one stone?'

I want there to be both and that they be 100% moddable.

 

[rhialto]

The problem is that the current health system, where a critically weakened ground unit can easily heal back to full health, prevents that from providing a realistic result. It doesn't matter if crossing the mountains/desert merely weakens your army if you can heal to full strength later.

We need a health system where lost health represents dead men (who are not known for their ability to heal back to full health), not merley injuries which can be recovered. The current health system is only realistic if you assume that one unit represents one man.

 

[eromrab]

i like the current health system... i just always assume that while i'm fortified on a mountain "healing" that i'm waiting for reinforcements to come and join ranks with me... which is why you don't heal the first round of fortification... cause you're sending out for the reinforcements...

at least thats how i look at it... it also makes better game play in my opinion...

 

[rhialto]

If reinforcements is the explanation, then why should battlefield medicene make a difference? And why should an expeditionary force on another continent with no harbour access still be able to heal if it stops for a turn?

 

[Portuguese]

Xi. I leave you for a bit and you get philosofical...

On the discussion:
in AoE you knew the ressult of the battle from the troops involved on it. in CIV, this random numbers always make me reload once in a while, when the result is outrageous. Increasing the number of random numbers involved doesn't seem the way togo for me... Just imagine to loose an Army in a desert tile, when the probability is about 1% or so...
I'd prefer a CERTAIN decrease, till red or so.

But I'd agree also to change the health system to avoid the "Hey, I'm fine again. Brand as new. Heya fellows, how's death like, now that you are all here." phenomenon.

Ideas?

and this is on topic, since this can determines how a terrain can alter that...
(again, how's gondorian troops going to face Mount Doom?)

 

[Khan Quest]

OK, how about you lose health points predictably, but permanently (e.g. A veteren becomes a regular).

 

[rhialto]

OK, how about you lose health points predictably, but permanently (e.g. A veteren becomes a regular).

Thats my other pet peeve on the combat system. A veteran isnt merely more numerous, hes *better*. It should be reflected in higher attack/defence values, not more hit points. More hit points only makes sense in a model where one unit is one man, and even then there is a better way to model it.

 

[sir_schwick]

How about lower health reduces combat efficiency?

 

[Portuguese]

Yes: low HPs > less move, lower attack/defense
Veteran > also would affect that.

Permanent loss of HP?!? Never thought of that... don't know what to say really... need time to think

 

[rhialto]

The permanent loss of hit points isn't quite that severe. Any such unit can spend a turn in a city on RnR. This costs a token amount of gold, and acts as refitting the unit back to its original former splendour. The cost represents recruiting extras to replace the lost men (above and beyond normal peacetime replacement levels) and hardware (vehicles, swords, and body armour).

 

[Portuguese]

isn't severe?!?

in a campaign, this can ruin your stack to a poor bunch of conscripts fighting elites on the other side.

Imagine that Mordor units didn't suffer from Ash, and that Gondorian were reduced to conscripts after making it's way till a Mordor city. Isn't that enough?!?

And have to pay to have the original hitpoints?

I can't imagine what is enough then...

 

[Spatula]

I agree with Portuguese - it favours one side too much.

 

[rhialto]

Hang on, Im propsoing a system where attack/defence factors are not lost from injuries, but hit point loss is permanent. You recover by spending a turn and gold in a friendly city.

In Your system no attack/defence factors are lost, but hit point losses (dropping exp levels) is permanent. You recover by winning battles.

So teh way to recover from half your soldiers is to fight a battle and win? Hmm, that makes sense. Not.

 

[Spatula]

Does it make sense to have someone effectively forget all their fighting experience (reflected in total HP) because of being in some ash and then only being able to become good again by spending money?

I'm totally against the idea of effectively demoting a unit. In Mordor ash (or any ash), if you stay too long you die. Simple as that. You're not gripped by sudden amnesia that makes you forget all your experience, demoting you and taking away HP. If you're in there long enough to die (which should be made to be quite some time otherwise it would be ridiculous) then it's your own fault for not planning.

In Your system no attack/defence factors are lost, but hit point losses (dropping exp levels) is permanent. You recover by winning battles.

I challenge you to find any post here where I propose such a thing.

 

[rhialto]

Portuguse said that. You said that you agreed with him. QED.

 

[Spatula]

Quantum ElectroDynamics?

I only said I aggreed with the one post on the one point - that I don't like the idea of having to pay yet more money for stuff. I shall have to be clearer in future.

 

[Khan Quest]

Ok, so how about this: you don't permanently lose a health point forever, you permanently loose the health point temporarily. Huh? That is, the health point is removed and the block indicating point is hollow or grey or something. You can'y get this point back until fortified in your own terratory.