test your opening play

[Belisar]

A lot of how your Civ-game will develop is decided within he BC time-frame (due to the snowball-effect)
Your skill can turn the tables but if you are left too far behind you will have a hard time (especially on higher difficult levels).
Therefore, I consider the opening play as one of the most important parts of the game.

This is not supposed to be an article about how to start a Civ4 game (there are some opening-guids in the forum, helpfull to a certain degree).
Often, newer players rely on a special build-orders advised by others or they apply the same strategy to every start they are dealt with, once they were successfull.
However, the unique leaders (traits, techs, units, buildings) and the starting position require different strategies for different situation.
In fact, there is no 'one-for-all' startegy concerning Civ4 opening play.

Since I first played Civ4 I experimented with this critical, initial part of the game, it has been something like a playground for me where I try different approaches, compare them and with each other and with the AI.
I played numerous test-games with various starts on (nearly) all difficult levels to gain experience and find out the most effective ways to build up from scratch.
Some Civ4 starts are rather straightforward (for example grassland-start near 2 wheat with agriculture) but sometimes real interesting positions turn up.
I want to share one of those challenging examples, a position that came up during one of my testings.

I will give you the 'case studie' first and wait for some response/input.
I also gave those starting position to 3 fellow civ players and I now have already 4 (including my own) different turnlogs for analysis.

BTS
small pangea, noble, 5 opponents, no barbs
HC (Inka)
financial
industrious
UU is the quechua (warrior replacement)
UB is a granary replacement with added culture
starting techs are agriculture and mysticism

Let's look at the initial position. First thoughts are, hey, very strong start, some clams out there, but hey, no fishing
Then one might think about all those woods but we got unlucky again, we don't start with mining.
And there are some stones within the radius, and what about our mysticism starting tech, well sooo many options.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/30880/HuaynaCapac_4000BC.CivBeyondSwordSave

My own analysis will come later, first you have the opportunity to show your skills regarding opening play.
I've posted the 4000BC save and will wait for any takers who would like to play until let's say 1000BC.
If you provide a written report of what you did (and why, perhaps with a few pics or saves) I could even analyse your strategy as I did with the ones of my fellow players.
I will then show you the different strategies and how they develop in BC-times, for comparison and to show you totally different,
interesting solutions to an extremly interesting starting position

So let the discussion begin, what would you do...

 

[Belisar]

reserved for analysis

 

[madscientist]

What difficulty is this?

 

[Belisar]

It's noble level to compare to the AI and give everyone an opportunity to take a shot at it.

 

[Bast]

I would research fishing first and build another Quecha and stack it with the first one to go conquering whoops exploring. But seriously, yes I would look for a close vulnerable neighbour with no early UU to terrorize. I'd then build another Quecha and keep it close to the capital and start work on a worker. But then again, I've never played Inca so I wouldn't really know.

 

[slobberinbear]

Good idea for a thread, though I'm not sure anyone needs to be "graded." We can all use some improvement.

I'm on a Pangaea map, noble, as the Inca with 5 opponents and no barbs. Here's how I see it:

Long-Term goal: Conquest of all opponents!
Medium-Term goal: to locate and conquer out one nearby vulnerable opponent
Short-Term goal: to build a force of Axemen
Immediate goal: develop Cuzco and one or two other cities (with copper, hopefully) for axemen

Immediate priorities:
Research fishing and build workboats
Research masonry and the wheel to hook up stone and build the Pyramids
Research mining and bronze working for slavery, wood chopping, and copper
Scout for nearest opponent and reveal map to find copper
Build the Pyramids -- We have stone and are Industrious

Short-Term Research Order:
1. Fishing. I want boats now for food and commerce.
2. Mining. For BW. Also makes Masonry cheaper, and there are two minable hills with no forests in our BFC.
3. Bronze Working. We know why this is good.
4. The Wheel. To hook up with city #2 and (hopefully) copper and stone
5. Masonry. To quarry the stone and build the Pyramids.
6. Pottery. For UB.
7. Animal Husbandry. In case there is no copper and for more food.
8. Iron Working. In case there is no copper or horse, otherwise, delay this.

Short-Term Build Order:
1. Start building Quecha (using forest hill 1F 2H tile) until Fishing is researched, then switch to workboat. We need to explore the map. Besides, we can't build a boat until fishing is done and we have nothing for a worker to do right now.
2. Finish Quecha, working clam tile to size 2, then clams and forest hill. Send Quecha scouting.
3. Build second workboat.
4. Start building third workboat, then switch to Worker so that worker completes when Bronze Working is done. Send worker to chop forest hill then build road to Stone.
5. Finish third workboat.
6. Quecha (settler escort)
7. Settler, finished with whip. Send settler to copper, if any. Otherwise, send him to high food location.
8. Terrace (UB), finished with whip.
9. Worker. Chopper and road-builder to city 2.
10. Quecha
11. Pyramids, chopped to completion.
12. Barracks
13. Military Units

When Pyramids are done, and assuming we have metal, switch to Police State and whip out a force of 12 axemen with two cities. I am intentionally not doing the Quecha rush because I'm going for the Pyramids.

Assuming a happy cap of 6 in Cuzco, we'll be working three Clam tiles (12F/9C), a plains hill mine (4H), a forest hill mine (1F/3H) and a stone quarry (1F/4H) at full capacity. We can also farm a riverside grassland tile (3F/1C) for those times after we've whipped when we need to regrow.

 

[Belisar]

Good idea for a thread, though I'm not sure anyone needs to be "graded." We can all use some improvement.

I apologize if it looks like someone will be "graded".
Because everyone is biased in some direction one reason for asking other players to give their 2cent (or even play ) on this particular starting position was to get different strategies and discuss them.
It's just a fact that this start is by no means an easy one to play in terms of efficiency.
This is not meant to be a competition but a fair discussion with some sporty criticism

 

[thorban]

*RESOURCE SPOILERS IN IMAGES*

This is a really good idea, so I went ahead and took your offer to play to 1000bc quickly. I don't expect my start to turn many heads, but I think it's respectable at least.

My first build was a quecha, while I researched fishing. I was planning on building a work boat right after the quecha, but Wang Kon showed up quickly and my first task quiclky became another capitol for a 2nd city. Oh, by the way, I got a scout out of that first hut as I expect most everyone will get.

With 4 Quechas in position against 1 korean warrior (I admit, I got lucky here, Wang left a warrior standing right next to his city for some reason)...

Spoiler :

... I had my 2nd city, a holy one at that, and 1 less rival. No wonders or even any buildings, but that's not suprising I think at this level of difficulty.

With a couple extra Quechas, I sent 1 scouting again and he was able to nab a worker for me. Good thing too because I was decidely low on them.

Spoiler :

Having all that done, I went ahead and got busy working that stone. I whipped a settler into stonehenge and had a forest chop...

Spoiler :

... Stonehenge in 1 turn.

After that The Oracle was up. It took more than 1 turn unfortunately. I think it ended up taking 6, not certain though. I was going to 2 pop whip it, but through some poor planning my 4th pop came late and I decided to not whip it at all.

Spoiler :

So here I am at 1000bc with 4 cities, 2 wonders, 2 religions and nearly done with alphabet. I would likely be done with alphabet had I not founded the copper city, but if I were to continue this game I would almost certainly attempt a late axe rush against pacal or sitting bull.

Spoiler :

If I were to continue this game a couple things I would also do is put a lot of hammers into the pyramids possible in 2 cities for the gold. Industrious+stone = $$$. I wouldn't bother completing them because I don't feel like they benefit a CE much at all in the early game. I would also block off the northern land from Saladin for settling later in the game when my economy is stronger.

*edit* I think my research order was Fishing -> The Wheel (so I could road to the stone while researching mining/masonry) -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> Masonry -> Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood -> Agriculture -> Animal Husbandry -> Writing -> Alphabet. Hunting came from a hut.

 

[Belisar]

Thanks thorban and slobberinbear for your input.
Any more takers?

 

[Giaur]

I would move Settler 1) inland or definitely 2) into tile that produces 2 hammers (stone or hills/plains) leaving place for second city but not in initial position but perhaps 1S1E from there. It gives you opportunity to build leeve later.

1) seeking for some irigated corn or livestock - then worker first
2) focusing on founding an early religion and building settler at that time

It's all because I do not like building warrior first. Starting with fishing is completely another story ...

btw. I tried to go inland but went into completly wrong direction. No 1 food resource and retired. It reminds me one HoF game, when I decided to go inland seeking for a tile that produces 2 hammers. I found one around 3300BC and rather without 2 hammers. The game was won, but results were not satysfing

 

[Airefuego]

The starts outlined above are all solid, but I would say not very imaginative... why not try something a little different.

I suggest a start that will use what you DO have from turn one, instead of focusing on what you don't have (fishing, mining, etc).

You start with mysticism, you are financial, you are on a lake and have seafood. Plus this is Noble, so the other Civs are not cheating on tech research.

This means you are an unstoppable dead set certainty to found an early religion, and probably both. Settle in place and work a lake or seafood tile first to get those commerce points. Your capital is shortly to become the religious and wealth capital of the world.

Once you have founded Bud and Hinduism (build warriors while you do, and go exploring) go for masonry and BW, quarry the stone and chop your way to stonehenge. You will generate a great prophet shortly, get your first shrine, and be well on your way to world power.

(Of course you will need fishing soon too, to get the food boosts).

For an example of how such a strat can really pay off - check this awesome thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=133492

It changed how I play Civ IV - the best lesson in making the most of your Civ's strengths that I have ever seen

 

[control740]

Well I'm no pro or anything but here's what I did. Actually to start off I'm just gonna say I got a little carried away and the crux of my opening ends at 225AD.

Start by building a worker and researching masonry for the stone within the capitals fat cross.

Encountered Koreans on turn 4, 3840BC. Being protective they're not a prime target for early war. I'm going for some easy wonders with both stone and industrious.

Finished Masonry on turn 8, researching the Wheel next to hook up stone.

Met Mayans on turn 10, 3600BC. Being financial they may be a good target to take out early, as they would be a a potential powerhouse.

Met Saladin on turn 11 and popped a scout from a hut.

Met Sitting Bull on turn 12, lots of protective civs close by, ick.

Finish the worker on turn 15 and built a Quecha next for escort of first settler.

Finished the wheel on turn 16, mining->bronze working next.

On turn 21 met the Portuguese.

Popped pottery from a hut on turn 26, sweet UB tech for free.

Finished Bronze working on turn 33, the stone has been hooked up, and a settler is in production. Chopped a forest on a grasslands hill to hurry settler. Also switched to slavery.

Finished Fishing on turn 38, going animal husbandry next for horse reveal.

Popped another scout on turn 44, just built a fishing boat in capital, am now building stonehenge.

Founded second city on turn 47, near some bronze, cows & Corn. Start worker there and after a few more tiles are done on capital start road to new city for hooking up of bronze.

Animal Husbandry done on turn 48, now researching writing.

Stonehenge finished on turn 52, building another Quecha then settler next.

Writing done on turn 54, polytheism->priesthood next(hoping for the oracle)

On turn 62 I finished priesthood. Noticed Judaism hasnt been popped yet so I go for monotheism in 9 turns.

Finished monotheism and founded Judaism on turn 71, Code of Laws next. Oh and city 3 is up.

Finished the Oracle on turn 80 and took Metal Casting for cheap Forges with Industrious.(this is about where you originally asked to go, being at 1000BC or so, FYI)

With forges & barracks up starting to pump axemen, whipped a few but I'm already pumping them out of two forge-equipped production cities in 2 or 3 turns each so not so much, I mainly used it to get one city out of unhappiness where I forgot to limit growth.

Code of Laws on turn 91 founds confunscianism. Alphabet next.

Finished Alphabet on turn 104, traded Code of Laws for Meditation, Saling, Ironworking, and Hunting to the Portuguese who were lowest on the score chart and furthest from me.. Researching Currency next.

With about a dozen axemen, DoW on Mayans on turn 110, 125BC.

Mayan capital down. Finished currency on 119. Math->Construction next.

Took 2 Mainland mayan cities, razed another, and declared peace cause they have an offshore city, but they're crippled now and irrelevant. Gained a source of horses from one of their cities.

This leaves me with 6 cities in 225 AD, 4 built on my own, 2 captures. Stonehenge, Oracle, and pyramids coming in 11 turns. I'm seeing Native Americans and Koreans both Hindu so I may switch Hindu and reinforce relationships there for now as they're two close neighbors, and target saladin next who is second in line. After I get construction and spread a few more cities I will build cats and swords(or maybe maces if I'm close) and go to town on the Arabs.

 

[thorban]

Encountered Koreans on turn 4, 3840BC. Being protective they're not a prime target for early war. I'm going for some easy wonders with both stone and industrious.

Protective only benefits archers and gunpowder units, so Wang Kon is actually a good target for a very early war in lower difficulties.

 

[madscientist]

Here is my save at 850 BC, the date I poped my first GP and built my third wonder.

Pregame ideas

Leverage HCs trais while using his UU as defense to allow this.
Go after fishing ASAP.
Masonry is high priority because of the stone in the BFC.
Chop forrests as needed (I did not have to do this).
Shoot for Judaism since I start with 2 techs towards it.

Game progression

Tech path: Fishing/mining/BW/masonry/wheel/polytheism/monotheis (found Judaism)/AH/Pottery (times with oracle)/writing/sailing/hunting

Cuzco: Quncha (partial)/workboat/finish quencha/worker/workboat/settler (use first quencha for protecting second city)/Quencha (to protect road between 2 cities)/Stonehenge/Oracle/Forge/Colossus/Start pyramids

Second city: worker/military/barracks.

Second city is settled to the south to collect corn and cows using fresh water.

Got all three wonders, took temple of solomon with prophet.
Took metal casting as free tech.
Did not switch to Judaism yet because of diplomacy.
Got 114gold in huts. No techs or units.

Overall a great start for best AI IMHO. Shooting for early wonders with HC while working the high commerce tiles is my early strat.

I always play marathon speed/huge maps so this was a bit turbo for me.

edit: add Priesthood after monotheism.

 

[control740]

Protective only benefits archers and gunpowder units, so Wang Kon is actually a good target for a very early war in lower difficulties.

Aye, but I wasnt going for a VERY early war, ie not a quechua rush. In a different setup I may indeed have gone for it but I decided not to in this case. Settled on a axeman rush.

Now maybe I SHOULD have gone for a Quechua rush, I won't deny that, as I said I'm no expert player, I consider myself to be intermediate.

 

[Belisar]

Great input so far. All those warmongers out there should have made this emperor

I suggest a start that will use what you DO have from turn one, instead of focusing on what you don't have (fishing, mining, etc)....
.....Settle in place and work a lake or seafood tile first to get those commerce points. Your capital is shortly to become the religious and wealth capital of the world.

This is one of the challenges the start implies, working the seafood isn't possible cause we don't have fishing.

 

[mice]

Great input so far. All those warmongers out there should have made this emperor

Great idea for a thread. I think you should have barbs on though. Most strats assume barbs, and you have to do things differently with them on.

Next one, yes please do another soon, use a non financial leader so we can see the differences.

What analysis are you heading for? You could look for total commerce, hammers,soldiers,land area, resources,wonders, beakers gained, diplo modifiers...

I'll try to play today too.

 

[Belisar]

What analysis are you heading for? You could look for total commerce, hammers,soldiers,land area, resources,wonders, beakers gained, diplo modifiers...

As stated, this is not meant to be a serious competition so I won't go ahead and count the beakers
It's more of a discussion of a very interesting starting position, what strategies different people will employ and how efficient they turn out to be.
I will wait further (at least until tomorrow) to give more forum members an opportunity to try the start, then I will post my own analysis and discuss some strategies.

 

[mice]

As stated, this is not meant to be a serious competition so I won't go ahead and count the beakers

Fair enough. I just played out some turns and it's an interesting map.

Spoiler :

I think diplomacy might play a key role, deciding who's who.

 

[illram]

1000 BC. Nothing too astounding although I played this differently than usual owing to the difficulty level. I think the difficulty level dictates the opening strat more than anything, b/c I know what I can do and can't do. For instance, since this is Noble, the Quecha actually is less effective because the AI's start with warriors. Also, knowing the AI isn't going to expand very much or beat me tech-wise, I went religious early and didn't get BW very early. On Monarch I probably would have tried to hook up either iron, bronze, or horses earlier and definitely would have done a quecha rush on someone. I also would not have gone for monotheism and probably would have built the GW instead of stonehenge and used the spy to steal techs. Pics in spoilers.

Spoiler :

My Capital:

Two wonders- Oracle and Stonehenge. Took MC w/ Oracle. Founded Judaism and Hinduism. If I kept playing I would likely go Great Lighthouse and Colossus-- not possible on higher difficulties but I got Metal casting w/ the oracle so it's very possible to do both here. I also have some forests left over as I didn't chop very much yet so the Colossus won't take long even though I don't have copper.

The known world:

An early war with Wang Kon turtled him and kept him from hooking up the copper. I am researching iron, but the elephants below me will be nice for taking over sitting bull. Construction would be a priority if I continued. I have only two cities but I just completed a settler since I concentrated on wonders and religions early as opposed to REXing.

My techs:

I believe I went Polytheism, fishing, mining, BW, monotheism... after that not so sure how I did it. Basically concentrated on religion, wonders, and getting out a settler or two.