gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
I didn't either. Since it was at the beginning, I thought it was something available pre-turn and 10 turns earlier he'd turned it down before he started playing.Whomp said:
TGOM 02 - The Grumpy Old Monk and the Ancient Crone go to Alpha Centauri
- Thread starter Bede
- Start date
grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
hey scout, good to see you post again 
you planning on staying away from Wilma or did you get that chainsaw fixed?
you planning on staying away from Wilma or did you get that chainsaw fixed?
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Chainsaw and generator are gassed up, and I've got plenty of food that can be eaten cold.grahamiam said:hey scout, good to see you post again
On another note, Bede tells me I need to catch up with you for some news on a mutual friend (the Tasmanian Swede).
@Bede: What are your thoughts on Civil Engineers versus taxmen/scientists in this particular game? I haven't looked at the save, but I gather you're placing top priority on gold at the moment...
Gold is king.
The CE's can help in the bigger towns if we need to pick up a couple-four shields at a small cost in gpt for a building we might need, like trimming to fill the 16 or 32 shields needed for a SS part. I used a couple at Salamanca, for example when I needed to balance the output for completing ToE.
But much experimentation over the last months has demonstrated that once you get factories up cops are more useful as they add both net gold and shields to the economy.
That said I want to see much experimentation with the scientists, tax guys, cops and CE's as they are very useful when properly applied. Unfortunately the only way to do it is by inspection of each productive large town and its needs for science, gold, or shields. In the corrupt towns you can generally go with either tax or science and come out okay.
The CE's can help in the bigger towns if we need to pick up a couple-four shields at a small cost in gpt for a building we might need, like trimming to fill the 16 or 32 shields needed for a SS part. I used a couple at Salamanca, for example when I needed to balance the output for completing ToE.
But much experimentation over the last months has demonstrated that once you get factories up cops are more useful as they add both net gold and shields to the economy.
That said I want to see much experimentation with the scientists, tax guys, cops and CE's as they are very useful when properly applied. Unfortunately the only way to do it is by inspection of each productive large town and its needs for science, gold, or shields. In the corrupt towns you can generally go with either tax or science and come out okay.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
Bede, I realize the game has gone beyond this point already and we didn't yet have Steam in my last turnset, but I was reading one of your posts in Clive1 where you asked, "To the team: do we need a tutorial on efficient rail building?" I could use some pointers.
I've read about two seemingly opposing ways to do it in the forums: 1) first rail a backbone to reach all the main distant ends of the empire, and 2) rail the core first to increase production. Is one way or the always correct, or does it depend on the situation, or should both be attempted at the same time? The core production is important, but if you should be at war, reaching your borders can be very important as well. Comments would be helpful.
I've read about two seemingly opposing ways to do it in the forums: 1) first rail a backbone to reach all the main distant ends of the empire, and 2) rail the core first to increase production. Is one way or the always correct, or does it depend on the situation, or should both be attempted at the same time? The core production is important, but if you should be at war, reaching your borders can be very important as well. Comments would be helpful.
@gmH, As always it depends on the situation.
What I do is put together gangs depending on how many it takes to rail a flatland field in a single turn. The number of workers needed will vary from 3 to 6 depending on traits and the knowledge of RP. And the total number of gangs required will also vary depending in the size of the empire and the number of productive cities, and the kind of building going on at the time.
Railing does three things: increases shields from mined fields and food from irrigated fields and it removes movement cost for units.
So, I will usually assign two gangs to rail toward each other from the farthest points of the empire, or to rail out from the center. Then the other gangs are assigned to rail mined flatland fields in the vicinity of the productive towns. If there are wonders or prebuilds happening I will add rails to all shield producing fields in the area of those builds first. If there is nothing like that going on I will simply assign one gang to each town and rail up the flatlands, saving the food fields and forests for last. By the time all that is done Industrialization should be known so the workers go back and chop forests for factories then mine or irrigate as needed, then add the rails if needed. This is also the time when hills and mountains get their rails.
Obviously if you are fighting a continental war the priorties shift. Rail to the periphery with a mainline set up so that no town is more than 1 step off a rail line. Once the milnet is in place you can gather the gangs to rail up the productive core.
As you work outward from the center the priorities shift from shields to food so that has to be kept in mind when assigning your gangs.
What I do is put together gangs depending on how many it takes to rail a flatland field in a single turn. The number of workers needed will vary from 3 to 6 depending on traits and the knowledge of RP. And the total number of gangs required will also vary depending in the size of the empire and the number of productive cities, and the kind of building going on at the time.
Railing does three things: increases shields from mined fields and food from irrigated fields and it removes movement cost for units.
So, I will usually assign two gangs to rail toward each other from the farthest points of the empire, or to rail out from the center. Then the other gangs are assigned to rail mined flatland fields in the vicinity of the productive towns. If there are wonders or prebuilds happening I will add rails to all shield producing fields in the area of those builds first. If there is nothing like that going on I will simply assign one gang to each town and rail up the flatlands, saving the food fields and forests for last. By the time all that is done Industrialization should be known so the workers go back and chop forests for factories then mine or irrigate as needed, then add the rails if needed. This is also the time when hills and mountains get their rails.
Obviously if you are fighting a continental war the priorties shift. Rail to the periphery with a mainline set up so that no town is more than 1 step off a rail line. Once the milnet is in place you can gather the gangs to rail up the productive core.
As you work outward from the center the priorities shift from shields to food so that has to be kept in mind when assigning your gangs.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
Ah, thank you...that helps a lot! I usually set my workers on "rail to" whatever seems the highest priority for the situation, but of course they make no distinction between shields and food, so I can see where managing the teams myself would work better no matter what the strategic location priority.
I must say that workers, left on their own, can do some pretty creative swoops and swirls around the map after the first few cities are connected, sometimes covering the entire empire to reach a location 2 tiles away.
I must say that workers, left on their own, can do some pretty creative swoops and swirls around the map after the first few cities are connected, sometimes covering the entire empire to reach a location 2 tiles away.
Played a Demigod game with a bunch of crazos and automated workers once. Had to turn "animations off", which I never do cause I hate it when some purple guy sneaks up on my lightly defended combat settler, but the auto workers were putting me into a fugue state.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
Bede said:
BTW, computer is now fixed and Civ is loaded. The CD/DVD drive was bad and had to be replaced by my IT guy. I'm back in business!!!
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
@Team: For this victory condition and goal, truer words could not be posted.Bede said:
I personally think CE's most powerful role is speeding along corruption fighting improvements in woefully corrupt tows...as part of an overall effort to prepare an empire for communism. The point seems worth emphasizing - they need to be employed judiciously in this game, as their cost can add up if used on too large of a scale. Gold is indeed king in the space race.
@Brother Bede: I hope you don't mind if I expand on this a little bit...
another @Team: A note on balanced production: As you move up in levels, it becomes increasingly important to be frugal with your resources...right down to the number of shields it takes to complete a build in a city. If your city is producing 11spt and building an 80 shield Cavalry, it will complete that Cav in 8 turns; wasting 8 shields in the process. If you can add a shilling or two to the treasury or beakers while maintaining 10 spt, that's 8-16 gold you wouldn't otherwise have (and you still get your Cav in 8). If you're doing this is 6 or 8 cities...you get the idea.
This reminds me of a certain defiant demi-god SG I played in...
This was probably the second best SG learning experience I've had (GK2 being the first). In that game I was surprised at the number of times we were able to shave a turn off the research cycle by playing with specialists...and most of us scrolled through our cities nearly every turn in that game. Since that game I have been able to do this many times...and at other times I've been able to increase gpt to the point that I could afford to buy a tech that I otherwise would not have been able to afford. When your goal is a spaceship win, every time you can shave a turn off the research curve you have just brought your launch date one turn closer.
lurker's comment: Hey I resemble that remark!Bede said:
Team you guys are getting some fantastic advice from Bede and now Scout! Keep up the good work! One thing that has helped speed up the pace of the mm'ing is align the cities according to uncorrupted shields and start from the bottom and move up (The less corrupted cities generally will have all their citizens working the fields for uncorrupted gold and shields) but the farms are the ones that accelerate your mission.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
@ harriet, just a side bar on the railing - it is much easier to set up the railgags without waste if you segregate the workers and slaves.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
Thanks, AK! I guess that's so you don't end up with 8 1/2 workers on your crew, huh?Admiral Kutzov said:
Just because I know everyone is eager for an update, I am slowly plugging through my turns. We got ToE (no surprise) and Hoover is around the corner. My wheeling and dealing got us caught up with Hammi and X-Man with the exception of some optional techs while keeping our monopoly on Electronics for the time being. With all of our deals, including the one I made with Persia for Atomix, we can max out research and still make money each turn. We don't have oil in our territory, but we will in 2 turns after I poach some from X-Man's outpost on our continent. And I have discovered the fun of fiddling with specialists! Sorry it's taking so long -- recuperating from my trip took longer than I expected and I'm going very slowly. Should have the complete update late tonight. Just in time for Harriet to try out her new CD drive.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
A lot of that is pretty new to me as well. I'd never used cops before and the CE's only once. I expect turns are going to take ever-increasingly longer if we're monitoring specialists each time. I can see now how it's done, but I'm not always clear on the cost/benefit in specific cases, i.e., is it really worth using a CE to build a court far from the core when we will have to pay maintenance on it forever?eotinb said:
Maybe Bede could expand on this concept. He said, "Gold is King", so does that mean an emphasis on taxmen? or CE's to build banks? or something else? I expect it may take many games to really become comfortable with when to do what and, as always, it will depend on the specific situation.
@the lurkers Thanks for pointing out when to pay special attention to Bede's comments that were important to your own learning process. There is SO MUCH said, absorbing all of it is hard in a single game, and I'm sometimes "memory-challenged".
Need some input from the team. The dyes deal with Alex just expired and the trade advisor is telling me he doesn't have any extra to trade. Hammi, Shaka, and Abe are all dogpiling Alex -- should we take this opportunity to stab him in the back and grab his dyes in the process? CAII is telling me we have a ROP with him that has no expiration date -- what's the deal with that?
Actually, given how long this is taking me and my uncertainty, I'm thinking about only playing 5 turns this time, which would mean finishing the current turn and passing off the save. Is this a problem for anyone?
Actually, given how long this is taking me and my uncertainty, I'm thinking about only playing 5 turns this time, which would mean finishing the current turn and passing off the save. Is this a problem for anyone?
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
I don't know about the backstabbing part, but if there's no expiration date, you can go to the "active" trades area and eliminate it without any rep hit.eotinb said:
As for the dyes, I'm not sure what happened on your turns, but usually the advisor (trade advisor?) will pop up and say, "We've lost our dyes", or some such thing. I'm always running MapStat and I go immediately to its trade section, make sure of who I had that particular trade with, then go immediately to F4 and renew the trade if I still want it. That way the other civ has no opportunity to trade it to anyone else.
I believe I'm up next, and I'm willing to take it, but I'll probably be no more certain of anything than you are. You could just post your turnlog and save to date and ask for advice on the next 5 turns (something I've done in as few as only 2 turns
). OTOH, if it's becoming very time-consuming maybe we should all begin taking only 5 turns (or have the option to do so). I know I feel exhausted quickly when I'm struggling with something new and unsure of myself.Sounds like the time for a team discussion of where to go from here.
@eotinb, glad you are having fun!
Go to the "active:" button under the leaderhead and cancel the RoP if you want to help the other guys finish Alex. A more interesting alternative might be to open hostilities with the dogs
The ten turns are only a guideline. Take as many as you are comfortable with up to that number, or you can exceed it if you are working on something intricate that takes a couple more turns for you to assess sucess or failure.
Go to the "active:" button under the leaderhead and cancel the RoP if you want to help the other guys finish Alex. A more interesting alternative might be to open hostilities with the dogs
The ten turns are only a guideline. Take as many as you are comfortable with up to that number, or you can exceed it if you are working on something intricate that takes a couple more turns for you to assess sucess or failure.
Thanks for the feedback, and the patience. I'm feeling ambitious tonight, so I think I'll probably finish out my 10 turns.
@gmaharriet: I got the expiration notice and, knowing that we were getting them from Alex, immediately tried to renew but he didn't have any extra. I still see plenty around Sparta, but I also see plenty of Hammi's troops, so maybe the roads have been pillaged.
@Bede: I agree that taking on the dogs, as you say, might be more fun, but I had my eye on Alex's dyes.
I don't think I've fought many cav vs infantry wars -- would it make more sense to wait for tanks? I guess I'm itching for a fight since I missed out on the earlier fun, but I'm also concerned about adding more complications (ie, more opportunities to foul things up). I'll take a closer look at things when I fire it back up and post the log later tonight.
Edit: I can't believe how long this is taking! I've got 2 turns to go but I can't keep my eyes open any longer. Short version: We seem to be pulling ahead in the tech race and Alex doesn't have much time left, but Hammi beat us to Sparta and the dyes. Should have plenty of time durng the day tomorrow to finish up, but I've said that for a few days now.
@gmaharriet: I got the expiration notice and, knowing that we were getting them from Alex, immediately tried to renew but he didn't have any extra. I still see plenty around Sparta, but I also see plenty of Hammi's troops, so maybe the roads have been pillaged.
@Bede: I agree that taking on the dogs, as you say, might be more fun, but I had my eye on Alex's dyes.
I don't think I've fought many cav vs infantry wars -- would it make more sense to wait for tanks? I guess I'm itching for a fight since I missed out on the earlier fun, but I'm also concerned about adding more complications (ie, more opportunities to foul things up). I'll take a closer look at things when I fire it back up and post the log later tonight.
Edit: I can't believe how long this is taking! I've got 2 turns to go but I can't keep my eyes open any longer. Short version: We seem to be pulling ahead in the tech race and Alex doesn't have much time left, but Hammi beat us to Sparta and the dyes. Should have plenty of time durng the day tomorrow to finish up, but I've said that for a few days now.