TGOMTG Conquest Class Challenge (C3C)

[Methos]

Hmm, a possibility. I didn't look to hard at that way as I believe (can't remember exactly) that it was around 38 gpt plus 700+ in hard coin. I'll look again later.

I'll start off with Eridu as I'll be able to attack it within a turn or two, after that I'll see whats around.

 

[namliaM]

Onl;y about about a grand or so to finace any Middle Age knoweldge buys. So I spent some of it rushing culture and settlers.

The deal seems like a lot more expensive than a grand... Is the timing proper?

Miami was built to support the Sumerian war if it had gone badly, it is now set to self destruct so we can site a better town in that area.

Miami is now set to a settler and should self destruct again

The Germans built the Great Library

Remember ?!??!?!?!?!
If we get a tech from Persia it is an automatic tech for the germans

 

[Methos]

The Germans built the Great Library

Remember ?!??!?!?!?!
If we get a tech from Persia it is an automatic tech for the germans

Totally forgot about that, glad you mentioned it. So if we do get Guns we need to immediately sell it to the Germans, no matter how cheap they will pay.

Really glad you mentioned that.

 

[Bede]

1) MA with Persia was definitely called for as Babylon has knights. Rather not have too many of those in our neighborhood.

2) Nice bit of warmongering namliaM!! I especially like the tactical concentration. Only point I might raise is Don't chase strays.. It delays the advance. Better to fortify in place and let them come to you, especially when you have defensive bombard in the stack.

2) On the upcoming trades: even if Germany did not have the Great Library they have enough cash in the kitty to buy a tech at third AI to AI pricing, so the rule of thumb is when you have something they might want sell it on. If they have no money you can wait, sometimes, but only if they do not have any coin at all.

2) Prices for MA knowledge are double or triple what AA knowledge was. Nonetheless 1000g in the kitty with our current level of cash flow will buy just about anything.

3) Now we get to think about what nation should be our creditor. The key here is whose research do we want to power and whose do we want to impede. Buying for gpt will add momentum to an AI's research effort, while selling for gpt will have the opposite effect. Seliing luxes for any kind of payment, whether cash or credit will boost their economy, while selling strategic resources like iron or saltpeter for credit may cause their economy to crash in what I have termed the "SDI recession".

As for the current state of trade I would be inclined to trade in the direction that puts money in our pocket and I think buying Chivalry and then trading for Guns is way to do it. But buying Guns is critical for us in any case as it looks like muskets/cavalry are going to be our best troops, and if we have saltpeter we don't need iron until Metal or Steam anyway.

 

[namliaM]

After thinking about the trades over night.... Cannot we wait for some pointy stick research from Babylon?
I can see getting Theo, Guns & later maybe even Chemistry. Theo and Chem in particual because they add 2 techs that can be bought.

Germany is the smallest of them, really greece but they dont have any techs... Germany is going to be a problem when they hit them panzers
We want a peace of Persia and a peace of Babylon (I think). We are allready getting the latter. Do not want to push the former....

Both Ottoman & Korea are Huge to much coin their way will lead to lots of monopoly techs (I think). Germany seems the logical choice to me....

@Bede, This non researching our selves, do we want to stay away from optional techs as much as possible?
Military tradition is optional, but manditory I think.... (want to get it asap IMO)

 

[Methos]

Pre-Turn:

Germany: We get Chivalry; we give Spices, Dyes, and 421 gold
Korea: We get Gunpowder and 53 gold, we give Chivalry
Germany: We get 279 gold; we give Gunpowder

WDC LB needs 20 shields to finish, short-rush a treb so that LB is done in 1. Boston short-rushes to get the spear out in 1. Erech is wasting food so I switch two citizens to taxmen (this only nets us an addition gold a turn). Philly short-rushes to get the LB out in 1.

IT: Germans’ are moving a massive amount of forces. A Bab knight attacks our SoD and kills a spear. WDC LB>LB (after short-rushing a spear [whoops, wrong thing]). Try and fix it by short-rushing a horse too. Boston Spear>Spear. Atlanta LB>LB. Philly LB>LB. Koreans are building Knights Templar.

1@750 AD: Trebs bombard Bab knight dealing 1 point of damage, our elite horse finishes him off. Add the stack to the north of our SoD and than fortify the bunch.

Note: 12 turns left in our MA and Babylon is already willing to negotiate! Lol.

IT: The German military advancement is blocking any attempt at reinforcing our Babylonian invasion force. It should be okay as namliaM left me plenty to begin with. WDC LB>LB. SF Courthouse>Library.

2@760 AD: Miami grows in two so I switch a citizen to taxman, hope it self-destructs soon. Unfortunately the forest chop went to Miami so that was a waste of shields. Should have switched it to a wonder to throw off the shields but wouldn’t that have than screwed up the self-destruct? Atlanta short-rushes to get the LB in 1.

IT: German forces continue to march. Bab spear attacks someone to the east of Eridu fails and retreats to Eridu. Kish Courthouse>Harbor. Agade Marketplace>Barracks. Boston Spearman>Spearman. Atlanta LB>Library (prepping for the chop). Miami self-destructs and we get a settler!

3@770 AD: We attempt an attack on Eridu but the trebs don’t do very good. I saw two pikes, two knights, and one spear. After losing two vet longbows I called a halt to the attack in hopes the trebs will do better next turn. WDC short-rushes. Boston short-rushes. Philly short-rushes. SF switches to trebs.

IT: Eridu loses a spear and a pikeman to someone attacking from the east. Bab LB dies attacking our SoD. German forces are attacking someone in Persian territory. WDC LB>LB. Boston Spear>Spear. Philly LB>LB.

4@780 AD: Argh!!! What luck!?! At first we were doing awesome; we defeated all of Eridu’s defenders except that last knight. Than whamo!! Lose every elite horse we have plus a LB and an archer. The Bab knight was redlined but promoted so currently has 2 hp. I’m afraid Persia (?) will capture Eridu.

IT: Yes! The Germans have finally cleared the path so we can send reinforcements. Greece and Babylon sign peace. Lagash Marketplace>Treb. NY Courthouse>LB. Thermop Worker>Worker (rush this one to remove Greek citizen). Agade Barracks>LB. Greeks are building Sistine Chapel.

5@790 AD: Well I took Eridu but at a high cost. The trebs dropped both defending knights to 1 hp and our remaining offensive forces took out one knight but failed on the other. Not wanting to lose it I crossed my fingers and sent in a spear and lo-and-behold he whooped the knight! Ha!! Though in truth my victory is a bit early as we still have to hold it. Plus our SoD isn’t worth squat now. Agade, Arrakis City, and Philly are about to riot so up the Lux slider to 30%. Looks like ww is starting to hit. WDC short-rushes. Philly short-rushes.

Note: We need to do our best to hold Eridu as it has saltpeter.

IT: Persia asks for alliance versus the Germans and ROP, I decline. Amazingly Babylon ignores Eridu, we may be safe. WDC LB>LB. Thermop Worker>Temple. Boston Spear>Spear (short-rushed). Philly LB>LB. Eridu has quelled two resistors, begin to starve them.

6@800 AD: NY short-rushes. SF does some minor short-rushing, shaving off one turn on the treb.

Greece: We get Theology and 4 gold; we give Invention and Spices

Note: Not to sure about this trade but since we want to keep Greece alive I went a head and did it.

IT: NY LB>LB. Agade LB>LB. Boston Spear>Spear (short-rushed). Chicago Aqueduct>LB. Education is available.

7@810 AD: WDC short-rushes. Philly short-rushes. Switch Thermop to settler.

IT: WDC LB>LB. Boston Spear>Spear (short-rushed). Philly LB>LB. Eridu one resistor quelled. Greek’s are building Leo’s. Persian’s are building Knight’s Templar.

8@820 AD: A Bab knight stuck its head out north of Ellipi so I throw a few stones its way than finish it off with a horse. A couple of our LB’s trade shots with a Bab LB defeating him. MM Chicago so it is producing 10 spt, do a little short-rushing while I’m at it.

IT: Korea demands 63 gold, I give in. Doesn’t seem worth going to war over 63 gold. Babs send several knights against our small SoD west of Eridu, nearly lose it. Agade LB>LB. Boston Spear>Spear (short-rushed). Another resistor in Eridu is quelled. Chicago LB>LB. SF treb>treb. Ottomans are building Sistine Chapel.

9@830 AD: Our trebs bombard the knights down to 1 hp each. Our vet LB gets promoted to elite. 2nd knight falls and use an elite horseman to finish off the stack. Unfortunately he isn’t able to move back into the stack. Whoops. WDC short-rushes. Philly short-rushes. SF short-rushes to keep from wasting shields in the end.

IT: Talk about betrayal and with only four turns left:

As expected, we lose our elite horse to a knight. A Bab archer falls to our spear. WDC LB>LB. NY LB>LB. Boston Spear>Spear (short-rushed). Philly LB>LB. Resistance in Eridu has ended; now they’re rioting. Atlanta Library>LB. Koreans are building Sistine Chapel.

10@840 AD: Chicago short-rushes. Bombard the Bab elite knight than attack him with our elite LB. We defeat the knight but stupid me now left our elite LB undefended. NY short-rushes.

Notes: There are two spears fortified on the road between SF and Thermop and I would suggest we leave them there. The Germans have been sending forces and blocked off our route south for several turns.

Short-rushing: I like it and did it a lot! Thanks for the info.

WDC, Chicago, Philly, Boston, and Atlanta are set at 10 spt. NY is at 15 spt and Agade is at 20 spt. I have been short-rushing Boston so that a spear is produced every turn. NY can use a warrior to short-rush so a LB is produced every two. WDC, Chicago, Philly, Boston, and Atlanta uses a treb in turn 2 to short-rush a LB so we have one every three turns.

Thermop is currently set to build a settler and I would suggest rushing it. There is open territory between Thermop and Eridu that we should grab up ASAP.

Ellipi has been sending knights quite frequently in the past several turns.

@Bede: There’s at least one spear that still has movement in Eridu if you want to defend the elite LB. I’ve been using Eridu and the SoD to move troops back and forth between the two so we may want to build a barracks there. Again, our MA was broken by Persia so peace is an option if we want it.

&%!$#&!!! I swore I saved the game before exiting!! Oh well, going back to the autosave I do everything exactly as before, including sending our elite archer out there to possibly die.

Double check, yes it’s saved.

Edit: Sorry no screenies.

Here's the save.

 

[namliaM]

Short-rushing: I like it and did it a lot! Thanks for the info.

WDC, Chicago, Philly, Boston, and Atlanta are set at 10 spt. NY is at 15 spt and Agade is at 20 spt. I have been short-rushing Boston so that a spear is produced every turn.

Yes shortrushing is good, but this is expensive!!!!!
A spear every turn in Boston means your (short)rushing from 0 shields. Meaning its DOUBLE the price.
If you rush something from 0-10 shields it costs 80g while rushing from 10 to 20 only costs 40. Which is why bede explained it to rush on the 2nd turn, (almost) never on the first!!

Edit: Looked at the save....
We have saltpeter, ONLY because we got the bab town. Will we have ANY resources "naturaly" I was sure there would be Saltpeter in our desert

Before peace with Babs I would like to capture 2 more citys
Athens (lux) & Elipi (Iron)

 

[Methos]

If you rush something from 0-10 shields it costs 80g while rushing from 10 to 20 only costs 40. Which is why bede explained it to rush on the 2nd turn, (almost) never on the first!!

Whoops, my mistake. I did rush the LB on the 2nd turn as explained but I rushed the spears on the first turn. Err! Need to pay closer attention. Sorry everyone, wasted a lot of cash.

Before peace with Babs I would like to capture 2 more citys
Athens (lux) & Elipi (Iron)

This was my intention, but I learned very quickly that horseman and LB don't stack up very well to pikes and knights defending on a hill. Our SoD was shot to heck in no time. I've been attempting to build it back up.

 

[Bede]

Good fight, Methos, trading not so good.

When I ran the trades for Guns I used one luxury good and cash to acquire Theology from Germany, then used Theology to get Guns and cash from Korea, then used the Guns to get most of the cash back from Germany. And then got the rest of the cash back for the other luxury. Chivalry got thrown into a deal as a sweetener somewhere along the line. And I used it to acquire Education.

I knew Eliipi was going to be tough because of the hill. Pikes in a hill town defend almost as well as Infantry.

The short rushing thing does require a little attention. You need shields in the bin before proceeding, preferably some multiple of ten. Accumulate ten, then pay for the shields necessary to the next step, which is one turn's production short of the needed.

Optional technology makes good trade bait as we get closer to the next age, so if they can be acquired as part of a deal for required techs, it is probably a good trade.

Will see what I can do about Ellipi and Athens.

And it does indeed look like we will have to fight for every thing we get.

 

[Methos]

Looks like trading is one of the things I need work on.

Think I'll check out that 'Turn Trading Challenge'.

Edit: The link is broken for that challenge.

Edit2: DJMGator13 has informed me of another set of trading challenges so I thought I would provide that link here.

 

[namliaM]

Good fight, Methos, trading not so good.

When I ran the trades for Guns I used one luxury good and cash to acquire Theology from Germany, then used Theology to get Guns and cash from Korea, then used the Guns to get most of the cash back from Germany. And then got the rest of the cash back for the other luxury. Chivalry got thrown into a deal as a sweetener somewhere along the line. And I used it to acquire Education.

to you Bede......

Butttttttttt...... I tried doing the trades.
I cannot get it to work. If I get Theo from the Germans.... Theo is the only prereq for Education isnt it??? .... There is NO education out there ?! Nobody knows education ?!?!?!?!?!

I do not understand

 

[Bede]

The trade for Education was a few turns down the line as I went ahead and had some fun with the babylonians, or maybe the Persians, I forget.

The point I was making is that by using all the resources (cash and trade goods) it was possible to do the deals as a 2fer or better.

Luxuries and strategic resources can have really high trade values and are better than gpt in some cases, and usually better than two techs for one instead of one for two.

BTW, to namliaM for the top quartile finish in COTM12. One of these days I will do as well.

 

[Bede]

840-870 Spend a little time reorganizing to get to decent spt and fpt numbers then rush some culture in the border towns. Build a nice stack of troops and start the march on Ellipi and then Athens. Just as I start to get lined up for Athens the Greeks retake it.

We are in excellent shape as the troops are well-organized and on the way to the battlefront in manageable and useful groups of combined arms. Well done, Methos.

The battle for Ellipi begins in 870

Win a battle against a pike with an elite horseman and Lee appears.

Lee builds a knight army in Ellipi.

Win another battle with a LB and Ellipi with its barracks belongs to Ammurica.

My victory is tainted when Thermopylae flips to the Greeks but no troops were lost as they are out guarding the roads.

And in 890 War Weariness breaks out all over, and lots of towns riot so the luxury tax goes up.

Take a look into Eulbar from the mountains and decide that knights against muskets is way too costly and I can buy Eudcation and an end to the war for only 420g in a payment of 21gpt so done. And stuff the garrisons at Eridu and Ellipi to prevent conversion.

The Persians are marching across Greece to get to Germany so I gave them a Right of Passage so they would not linger in our lands.

Babylon has at least two sources of saltpeter and one of horses and iron (their iron is under Ashur on the border with Persia) so knights, muskets and then cavalry will be a problem in the future. The good news is that the resources do not appear to be connected to their productive core towns

I am building colusseums in the larger towns to deal with our lack of luxuries. You really need four to keep a size 10-12 city happy and with our comparative land area buying luxuries is going to be more expansive than the 24gpt or so that colossei will cost us everywhere. A temple and colusseum plus the three native luxuries and markets will do nicely to keep our people happy.

Persia is buying iron from somewhere as they are moving immortals towards Germany.

Mid term I am afraid that Greece is our next target. The flip at Thermopylae and the recapture of Athens splits our territory and the Persian jungle is just too daunting. Greece has no resources and is the weak sister on this continent. They are not contributing anything to the technology race and removing them from the planet will reduce the costs of buying the next stage.

As long as the garrisons at Eridu and Eliipi are kept at the current levels or better the flip risk is minimal and will imprive as we remove foreign influences from the population (starve 'em down) and our cultural count improves. We are close to parity with Greece, Persia and Babylon right now but way behind Germany, Ottomans and Korea. We can build libraries in the smaller towns to get a boost, and we really need the cultural contentment buildings in the larger ones.

soul - set up the Greeks for the Mailguy, I think. Pacify the populations at Eridu and Ellipi (starve 'em out)
namliaM - got a really nice finish in COTM12
Methos - set up the finish to the Babylonian war
Bede - followed through but lost Thermopylae

 

[soul_warrior]

gots it, massah.
happy faces, greek faces, hungry faces.

 

[namliaM]

The trade for Education was a few turns down the line as I went ahead and had some fun with the babylonians, or maybe the Persians, I forget.

The point I was making is that by using all the resources (cash and trade goods) it was possible to do the deals as a 2fer or better.

Luxuries and strategic resources can have really high trade values and are better than gpt in some cases, and usually better than two techs for one instead of one for two.

BTW, to namliaM for the top quartile finish in COTM12. One of these days I will do as well.

Hmz, the trades.... I dont know... Guess I will have to try and do better, but IIRC I was unable to aquire Theo&Chiv&Guns&Keep Money.

How about Ropping eg the Gerries?

COTM12 I was glad to just survive to get a 35th spot I never would have guessed. But I went for the easy victory domination, whereas you did Diplo which is much harder in my oppinion. I think i have NEVER won Diplo! Allways Domination or conquest....

Guess I am no longer elligable for Conquest class

 

[namliaM]

I am building colusseums in the larger towns to deal with our lack of luxuries. You really need four to keep a size 10-12 city happy and with our comparative land area buying luxuries is going to be more expansive than the 24gpt or so that colossei will cost us everywhere. A temple and colusseum plus the three native luxuries and markets will do nicely to keep our people happy.

How about Cathedrals?

Persia is buying iron from somewhere as they are moving immortals towards Germany.

IIRC Persia has Iron in their SE corner near Babylon

Losing therm is bad but not as bad as losing it to the Babylonians, tho atleast then you could have taken it back.

I thought we were bent on keeping Greece alive?
Something about more civs = lower tech price?
Now its Less civs = lower tech price?

 

[Bede]

How about Cathedrals?

Cathedrals are good too. Colusseums are a little cheaper though the benefits are less. They are not as cost-efficient per culture or contentment, but the benefits come sooner.

IIRC Persia has Iron in their SE corner near Babylon

Near as I can tell it is still outside their borders but the map may have changed.

I thought we were bent on keeping Greece alive?
Something about more civs = lower tech price?
Now its Less civs = lower tech price?

As long as all the other nations are at parity in terms of territory and technology then the more the merrier as the research goes faster and more nations learn things so they become less costly to buy. Greece is about on a par with Sumeria right now and with only five cities they don't have the play in their economy to do any research to speak of, even at 80-100% of their budget. So they will fall further and further behind and since they lack strategic resources will probably not be able to get back in the hunt.

In the early stages (Ancient Age and early Middle) the more nations on the map that you know that know things you don't the cheaper the cost. That changes however as the game progresses into the later Middle Ages and the IA when a nation falls behind as far as Greece has.

Technology costs are a function of who knows what and how many whos there on the map. The more nations that know something the lower the cost but the more nations there are, witting and unwitting, the higher the cost. So, to wit, it makes sense to get the laggards off the map as they only clutter the landscape and don't have anything meaningful to offer in a brokering situation.

The difference is small in relative terms so has little impact on AA and early MA techs where the absolute costs are low. With the later MA, IA and Modern techs where the beaker cost is 3-5X greater then the difference becomes more noticeable. Note that this applies directly only to beaker cost, not asking price, but since asking price is a function of beaker cost it will add up to significant coin over the purchase of the 15 required IA techs.

I think this is clear as mud but I hope you get the drift. In short, it depends on the nation's position vis a vis all the other nations.

 

[namliaM]

How about razing a few city's in Babylonian lands and leaving the space to be settled by the Greeks?

Or Capture/Gift?

I do get you muddy explenation (sp?)
In short:
The more civs know the tech the lower the price.
The more civs do not yet know it, the higher the price.
3 knowing - 3 not knowing will have a higher price than 3 knowing - 2 not
while 4-2 is even cheaper.
Thus if a small civ is lagging with no clear way of getting back they will always be part of the not's thus raising prices.

Is that more or less correct?


Maybe Persia has set up some collonies to get at the Iron (IIRC they dont show in the fog)

Cathedral Colosseum
Cost: 160 120
Culture: 3 2
Upkeep: 2 2
Content: 3 2

I see your point, production cost (shields) cols are 75% of Caths, but caths have 50% more culture and make an extra content face...

Some math:
@10spt for the entire build and building Cath-Col or Col-Cath the Cath-Col combination will produce 5 more Culture points then the Col-Cath. In addition to 1 more content face for the duration of the Col build (12 turns) and at the cost of 2 content faces for 4 turns

@20spt 2 culture still for Cath-Col, obviously +1 content for 6 turns at the cost of 2 content for 2 turns

Very close indeed.... so either way will not matter (on an end to end build) if you put something in between the Cath and Col builds the difference will grow in favour of Cath-Col.
That is if you have the luxury of choice and have not yet build a Col in the (possibly short) period betwen Construction and Theology and have a temple allready.

For me (self research) Cons is one of the last AA techs....

In addition tho, the 12 turns earlier completion of the Cath will translate into earlier double of that Cath (and later double of the Col). There are just to many variables to compute this right now, but it seems logical that this will increase the difference again (in the pretty long term, > 1000 years, at 20 years per turn? = 50 turns) in favour of Cath-Col build (in culture per turn).

Also I dont know/remember the "year steps" in the turns ....

 

[soul_warrior]

tgomtg sw 950ad-1050ad

preturn - prepare: happy faces (ours), unhappy faces (in former babylon), unsure faces (in greece)
nothing to chane as usual.

1- Lagash treb > treb, Chicago musket > colloseum,
upgrade 1 horse to a knight (120g).
some troops move. i aim them at either SanFran or Ellipi\Eridu (which are at size 1, so starving them...)

2- WDC colloseum > knight, Agade colloseum > knight, Atlanta knight > colloseum, Arrakis City court > cathedral,
Babylon is building Copernicus.
ASTRONOMY is out the. our trading monopoly with Korea and Ottomans are nigh over

3- Ellipi rushed temple. upgrade another horse to a knight.

4- Ur colloseum > treb, Ellipi temple > walls,
more moves.

5- Umma harbor > colloseum, Ghulman harbor > colloseum,
run some workers upstate for the babylonian colonies.
our SPICE deal with greece ends.

6- NYC musket > cathedral, Agade knight > knight, Colloseum > knight, Philli market > cathedral,
rush stuff for 750g.
astronomy is owned by 3 AI and is too expensive right now.

7- Ur treb > treb, WDC knight > cathedral, Kish harbor > treb, Erech aqua > treb, Atlanta colloseum > LB, Chcago colloseum > Knight, SanFran harbor > market, Detroit market > treb,
some workers are busy chopping the new growing cities.

8- New Orleans court > aqua,
upgrade another 2 horses and a bit of stuff.

9- Sumer coloseum > treb, Isin musket > treb (my bad. thought it had a rax. it doesnt),

10- Persia is building KT.
persia and germany sign peace.
Ur treb > treb, Agade knight > cathedral, Atlanta LB > knight,

we are free to end our RoP with greece now.
we have loads of troops ready.
SanFran - 9 knights,2 spear, 3 LB, 3 muskets, 2 trebs.
Ellipi - 7 trebs, 1 spear, 1 musket, 9 LB, 4 knights, 1 knight army.
Eridu (persia side) has another 11 LB that can be brought into action.

there is also the iron guards that can use an upgrade.

on the trade side. maybe we should think about using it against babylon?
they have printing press, chemistry and astronomy. the greek have nothing.
persia has MONOPOLY banking. maybe get this and trade it around for the other techs?
persia wants 800g + 126gpt for BANKING.
and double checking - THEY DONT HAVE IRON (we can sell them ours) but they are moving knights.

my reasoning for choosing coloseums or cathedrals was simple.
how soon growth will kick the happy faces down and how many turns to build.
if it was 3 turns or so i chose drals. otherwise coloseums.

note 2 - chose a building set so: 1) we have enough troops (we now do) anmd 2) tech-wise i think maybe greece is not the right target right now. so i delayed decision for group before commiting.

 

[Bede]

Objectives for a Grecian conflict are territorial rather than scienitfic.

Taking Greece off the continent will position us to go against Germany, the local culture hog. The war should go quickly. Have some settlers ready to fill the gaps. Pull them from the northern towns that are growthed out

Depending on how much cash is out there, I would get banking and peddle it around. And if we can pick up Printing Press we can make some money off our contacts.