The 1421 Theory

[Rambuchan]

There are three aspects which bug me about the critiques of Menzies' work:

1) Jealousy: a) Pay: The vast majority claim that because Menzies received a large pay packet, this instantly means he is not worthy of credible inclusion. That's pretty ropey in itself. b) Rewriting of History: Most of the critiqes come from people who have a vested interest in history NOT being rewritten. Menzies is clearly a threat to their stats quo and their own book sales.

2) The impassioned nature of their critique: I'm sorry but it's equally dramatic to end critiques suggesting that 'the men in white coats' would be coming for Menzies. I find it hard to take someone seriously when they must critique a work in such personal terms. Many do this.

3) Highly Selective: As in the previous thread, criticism was waged at the more questionable claims Menzies makes. They are there, so that's fine but what about the more steadfast claims which still support the general theory? These are not addressed as well.

 

[Jorge]

There are three aspects which bug me about the critiques of Menzies' work:

1) Jealousy: a) Pay: The vast majority claim that because Menzies received a large pay packet, this instantly means he is not worthy of credible inclusion. That's pretty ropey in itself. b) Rewriting of History: Most of the critiqes come from people who have a vested interest in history NOT being rewritten. Menzies is clearly a threat to their stats quo and their own book sales.

2) The impassioned nature of their critique: I'm sorry but it's equally dramatic to end critiques suggesting that 'the men in white coats' would be coming for Menzies. I find it hard to take someone seriously when they must critique a work in such personal terms. Many do this.

3) Highly Selective: As in the previous thread, criticism was waged at the more questionable claims Menzies makes. They are there, so that's fine but what about the more steadfast claims which still support the general theory? These are not addressed as well.

I have not yet found any single evidence of Menzie´s claims in his web page. All of them are just possibilities that can be explained with more than a dozen different theories (for example, finding chinese coins in America is not evidence of anything. They could be carried there at any moment).

Maybe you can provide some evidences that are not so weak?

 

[Rambuchan]

Not today Jorge. Sorry. I've coughed up enough in favour of the guy today as is. Time some others chipped in or read the book themselves!!

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

We aren't suddenly discovering this now. We have known this for many centuries. According to imperial records, it was not the first great mapping expedition from China either: they sent ships out before 2000 BC.

Considering that the first recorded dynasty, the Shang, did not even exist until about 1200 BC, I consider this a legendary expedition.

Note that they had the advantage of their location: they could get everywhere by following the coast and some easy island-hopping. Therefore they may have had a good diet, too, and so in contrast to the Europeans they stayed healthy and did not spread the diseases that decimated the local population later.

Diet doesn't protect you from measles, smallpox, or plague.

Old Chinese coins and anchor stones have been found in/around the Americas, but most important are probably the hieroglyphs. Those in North America are almost identical to the old Chinese ones: the Chinese, so it seems, taught them Writing.

With the exception of the Mesoamerican and Andean nations, the Native American tribes had only a very rudimentary pictographic writing system, even hundreds of years after supposed contact, and one which did not resemble Chinese in any way. And most Native American tribes lacked any writing whatsoever.

As far as old coins and anchors, show me the evidence. I've never heard of it.

 

[Hannabir]

The story is that when Chinese professors saw North-American pictographs the first time, they didn't believe they weren't from China, since they could read them right away. That is how close they were.

I am talking about the expeditions sent forth by Yu, who became emperor in 2205 BC. Whether he started a dynasty or not is disputed, but the fact is that China was quite sophisticated before there were any dynasties anyway.
The expeditions to the Americas returned with arrowheads and accurate maps, descriptions of how the people lived. Not to mention the Fu Sang trees after which they named the Americas.

Diet doesn't protect you from measles, smallpox, or plague.

Actually, it does, according to the CDC. Diet and hygene.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

The story is that when Chinese professors saw North-American pictographs the first time, they didn't believe they weren't from China, since they could read them right away. That is how close they were.

That's nice.

I am talking about the expeditions sent forth by Yu, who became emperor in 2205 BC. Whether he started a dynasty or not is disputed, but the fact is that China was quite sophisticated before there were any dynasties anyway.
The expeditions to the Americas returned with arrowheads and accurate maps, descriptions of how the people lived. Not to mention the Fu Sang trees after which they named the Americas.

Sounds like legend to me. The earliest dynasty was the Shang, from about 1200 BC. There was a legendary dynasty, the Xia, but even that only goes back to 2000 BC. Get your facts and legends straight.

Actually, it does, according to the CDC. Diet and hygene.

I'm a medical doctor, and I tell you, you don't know what you're talking about. All you need to get measles is one cough from an infected patient. No amount of cleanliness or diet is going to stop that.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Yu was one of the mythical rulers, prior to the already legendary Xia.

And lately the Chinese had begun excavating major pre-Shang sites which they think are related to the Xia. Though this is still preliminary.

 

[Vietcong]

i think the first discovry of the americas was made much earlyer, around 1500 bc or so

how eals whold remnates of coco *sp* be found in egyptan mummys, or in old pots? y is this soo overlooked?

what about the tablet found in south america that was writen in phoneican or something? *acaly read this a while bk, from another poster hear*
and what about americas stone henge? it has some wrighing on it that seems based off a european wrighting

 

[Jorge]

The story is that when Chinese professors saw North-American pictographs the first time, they didn't believe they weren't from China, since they could read them right away. That is how close they were.

That is as much evidence that the chinese discovered America than the native americans discoverd China.

In any case, have you any link to support this information?

 

[Che Guava]

i think the first discovry of the americas was made much earlyer, around 1500 bc or so

how eals whold remnates of coco *sp* be found in egyptan mummys, or in old pots? y is this soo overlooked?

oh god, not this again!!!! I thought we put the coca thing to rest back in the who discovered america thread, a while back. Either way, I think the Chinese had a better chance than anyone from Egypt/Phonecia...

 

[Hannabir]

I'm a medical doctor, and I tell you, you don't know what you're talking about. All you need to get measles is one cough from an infected patient. No amount of cleanliness or diet is going to stop that.

If there is measles aboard ship, don't get within coughing distance of the ill. That is also an element of hygiene. In the 15th/16th century, the Europeans may not have known this. (And, the ill have to wash their hand often.)

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

If there is measles aboard ship, don't get within coughing distance of the ill. That is also an element of hygiene. In the 15th/16th century, the Europeans may not have known this. (And, the ill have to wash their hand often.)

Dude. Those ships weren't exactly spacious.

 

[Hannabir]

Girly. Chinese ships were enormous.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Moderator Action: Will you guys pls stop all the name-calling? Thanks.

 

[Hannabir]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

The fleets

Early 17th century Chinese woodblock print, thought to represent Zheng He's ships.According to Chinese sources, the fleet comprised 30,000 men and over 300 ships at its height.

The 1405 expedition consisted of 27,000 men and 317 ships, composed of:

"Treasure ships", used by the commander of the fleet and his deputies (nine-masted, about 120 meters (400 ft) long and 50 m (160 ft) wide).
"Horse ships", carrying tribute goods and repair material for the fleet (eight-masted, about 103 m (339 ft) long and 42 m (138 ft) wide)
"Supply ships", containing food-staple for the crew (seven-masted, about 78 m (257 ft) long and 35 m (115 ft) wide).
"Troop transports", six-masted, about 67 m (220 ft) long and 25 m (83 ft) wide).
"Fuchuan warships", five-masted, about 50 m (165 ft) long).
"Patrol boats", eight-oared, about 37 m (120 feet) long).
"Water tankers", with 1 month supply of fresh water.
The enormous characteristics of the Chinese ships of the period are confirmed by Western travelers to the East, such as Ibn Battuta and Marco Polo. According to Ibn Battuta, who visited China in 1347:

…We stopped in the port of Calicut, in which there were at the time thirteen Chinese vessels, and disembarked. On the China Sea travelling is done in Chinese ships only, so we shall describe their arrangements. The Chinese vessels are of three kinds; large ships called chunks (junks), middle sized ones called zaws (dhows) and the small ones kakams. The large ships have anything from twelve down to three sails, which are made of bamboo rods plaited into mats. They are never lowered, but turned according to the direction of the wind; at anchor they are left floating in the wind.
A ship carries a complement of a thousand men, six hundred of whom are sailors and four hundred men-at-arms, including archers, men with shields and crossbows, who throw naphtha. Three smaller ones, the "half", the "third" and the "quarter", accompany each large vessel. These vessels are built in the towns of Zaytun and Sin-Kalan. The vessel has four decks and contains rooms, cabins, and saloons for merchants; a cabin has chambers and a lavatory, and can be locked by its occupants.
This is the manner after which they are made; two (parallel) walls of very thick wooden (planking) are raised and across the space between them are placed very thick planks (the bulkheads) secured longitudinally and transversely by means of large nails, each three ells in length. When these walls have thus been built the lower deck is fitted in and the ship is launched before the upper works are finished." (Ibn Battuta).

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Umm, 120 meters long made of wood and bambu? Too big for such weak materials, isnt it?. It seems hardly capable of crossing Pacific Ocean.

 

[Hannabir]

Could be, but they did not have to cross the Pacific.

 

[Plotinus]

Well, I don't know if you caught it, but apparently Plotinus was asked to edit the footnotes for Menzies' book. And he wasn't exactly impressed with Menzies' "scholarship", which is not a good sign.

Oh yes, that's true. Of course I never gave it another moment's thought until I saw all the posters on the Tube advertising the book, and it was a while before I realised it was the same thing. If I'd known how huge it was going to be maybe I'd have done it after all...

Although I should point out that I only dealt with the editor and never read any of the material, and I haven't read the book, so I can't really comment on the theory. Although I'd hardly be qualified to do so even if I had.

But I think Nanocyborgasm's point about epidemics is extremely important (I know this having just read Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel"). The reason all the native Americans dropped dead when Columbus turned up is that they had never been exposed to Old World epidemics, and they had never developed any epidemics of their own, partly because of lower population density. China had all the same germs as the Europeans. So if Chinese explorers had reached America before Columbus, the epidemics would have swept through America, and the survivors would presumably have been far more resistant to those brought by the Europeans. As Nanocyborgasm points out, this has nothing to do with personal cleanliness and everything to do with genetic resistance brought about by rather dramatic natural selection.

 

[Hannabir]

I guess you missed the part where someone explained why those arguments fail ....

Furthermore, the Chinese merely sent two or three mapping expeditions, and did not settle anywhere. Let alone spread diseases on purpose, as the Europeans did.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Did Spaniards spread diseases on purpose? Breaking news!