The 19 civs that should be in Civ 4

[Xen]

The Chinese culture saw Westerners as barbarians...

liek wise, westenrers saw the chinese as barbarians as well

 

[dc82]

Yes they are a major exporter. But my statement was based on japans history. Because they spent most of it fighting themselves. And i beleive i aknowledged world war 2. But they really haven't done much out side of their islands until the 1800's and even then they were far behind the united states technilogicly. We were selling them stuff. So aside from ww2 they've defended themselves against the mongols and that's pretty much it. Again that is aside from the relatively recent history of them coming out of their shell and trading with other countries.

actually japan heavily traded and deal w/ its surrounding neighbors - hence the heavy korean/chinese influence on japan - from buddhism to the kanji it uses. in fact japan tried invading korean and was also involved in a series of conflicts w/ china as well. they only became more isolated after the manchu's took over korea in around 1637 which lasted only 'til 1854, when commodore matthew perry came.

even so, japan's culture has always been very unique - very much like how england is to europe - western, but w/ its own spin on asian concepts. once japan opened up to the west, they became the first asian nation to modernize and successfuly counter the western nations, defeating russia in the russo-japanese war. by then japan began it's aggressive stance, taking over large portions of asia in wwii.

after the war, japan, now demilitarized, concentrated on its economy, becoming a huge economic power, one fo the most technologically advanced nations, and the 2nd largest contributer to the un.

japan is FAR from being a minor civ - i mean even if u jus take ev19thents from meiji era and on, that's still just as long as germany's history as a nation-state. japan def. has and is a major player in world history.

liek wise, westenrers saw the chinese as barbarians as well

i wudn't really say that - up until the 19th century, china was always regarded as a large and impressive nation, even to europeans, who searched around the world (literally) for a way to get there. there they were surprised at the idea of daily bathing (elizabeth i supposedly boasted that she only took a bath once), and were surprised at the level of advancement the chinese had. it was only by the 19th century, after bad policies of isolationism and aggressive european practices (dun forget they drugged up half of china w/ opium), that china declined to the point where conflicts and eventually imperalistic practices by european countries occured. perhaps this is the period u're referring to, but i wudn't call it barbarism - i dun think it reached that level, no doubt they looked down upon the chinese up until recently, but i wudn't call it barbarism.

anyways, just wanted to toss in my two cents. heh.

 

[Funky2882]

Okay i concede. I must admit i'm not well versed in japanese history. and was basing my opinion on japans attitude tword eruopeans. It really had never occured to me that they would deal with the other asain nations who were similar to themselves.

 

[Chazbagel]

Japan barbarians.....

thats almost funny.

 

[dh_epic]

Isn't that funny: someone who knows very little about a country's history arguing why that country isn't important enough to be in Civilization 4...

That has to be a first.

 

[Funky2882]

i would yell at you alot. But i know your being sarcasticly funny. So i'll let it slide. This time.

 

[dh_epic]

Pardon my snideness. I think I'm guilty of that one myself, so I'm not one to talk

 

[alex994]

i wudn't really say that - up until the 19th century, china was always regarded as a large and impressive nation, even to europeans, who searched around the world (literally) for a way to get there. there they were surprised at the idea of daily bathing (elizabeth i supposedly boasted that she only took a bath once), and were surprised at the level of advancement the chinese had. it was only by the 19th century, after bad policies of isolationism and aggressive european practices (dun forget they drugged up half of china w/ opium), that china declined to the point where conflicts and eventually imperalistic practices by european countries occured. perhaps this is the period u're referring to, but i wudn't call it barbarism - i dun think it reached that level, no doubt they looked down upon the chinese up until recently, but i wudn't call it barbarism.

anyways, just wanted to toss in my two cents. heh.

I think Xen was joking

 

[Hyena]

Ok, it seems like there are some of you who know quite a bit about history, some of you who don't, but think you do, and others who don't really know that much. That's a pretty good mix of people and ideas, and it certainly adds a level to this discussion that has nothing to do with school-taught history. Let me explain who my choices would be. If anyone wishes to argue with me I'd be happy to defend my ideas against any facts you may come up with, as I really enjoy a good discussion. Well.. my choices are:

1: Rome, 2: Greece, 3: Sumeria, 4: China, 5: Japan, 6: Egypt, 7: Britain, 8: France, 9: Spain, 10: Germany, 11: Austria-Hungary, 12: Ottomans, 13: Russia/Soviet Union, 14: Scandinavia, 15: Arabs, 16: America, 17: India, 18: Persia, 19: Mongolia.

These are all based on their actual historical significance. The only civ here I am a bit iffy about is Japan, as their effect on the world was not felt until after the Meji Restoration in the 1860s, but I can't see a civ-type game without any Samurai, they're just too cool. Anyone want to prove to me that my choices have no validity, I am happy to hear you. Ciao.

 

[dc82]

japan shud definitely be up there, b/c their relationship w/ the rest of asia, even pre meiji was important - it's no less valid than putting some of those european nations - i guess it's just seeing it from a non-euro/western-centric perspective. there was def. a big network going btw mongolia, china, korea, and japan from ancient to modern times.

 

[mudblood]

Okay, here are my 19, based on historical significance:

No need to defend:
1. China
2. India
3. America
4. Russia
5. England/Britain
6. France
7. Arabs
8. Rome
9. Japan

Without these guys, we wouldn't be where we are today:
10. Greece
11. Mesopotamia
12. Egypt

And the ones people may disagree with, with explanations:
13. Germany: way too influential culturally and scientifically to leave out, especially when you consider how many of Europe's wars have been fought there.
14. Aztecs: This may surprise a lot of people, but they did domesticate a lot of the food we eat (beans, tomatoes, corn, peppers), are the forebears of a nation of 150 million people (Mexico), and have had a huge influence artistically, esp. through the paintings of people like Frieda Kahlo.
15. Java. Huge population. Has interacted with the Asian (Kublai Khan sent an invasion force) world for mellenia. Amazing culture, first a big part of the Indian sphere of influence and then as a very important part of the Islamic world. This is where Sinbad the Sailor went travelling.
16. Mali. Another really important part of the Islamic world. African culture from this area influenced the Arab world and a large part of Africa. Just because that influence didn't get all the way to the West doesn't mean it wasn't significant.
17. Inca. Artistic, cultural. And the source of potatoes! But mostly because it's a huge influence on modern South America. There's a lot of people down there.
18. Spain. One of history's great conquering nations. And they founded a large part of Latin America.
19. Turks. Huge empire. Lots of different nations (Ottomans, Azerbaijanis, Uzbeks, Tajiks, etc., etc.). Important in Europe, India, and the Islamic World.

The one I wish I could squeeze in: Persia.

 

[Vael]

People may disagree with including Germany but not America?

 

[mudblood]

People may disagree with including Germany but not America?

Not a lot of people necessarily know about Germany, esp. in the U.S. I know some people thought the U.S. hasn't been around long enough to be included. But if we're talking world influence, you can't leave them out.

 

[Hyena]

Exactly right Mudblood. America, although I really hate to admit it, REALLY deserves to be in Civ. They have dominated the last century, and have earned their place. As for Germany, I too have found that tons of people don't realize their true significance. From the Goths invading Rome, to the Holy Roman Empire, to Brandenburg-Prussia, the Wiemar Republic, Hitler's Nazi Germany, and the central role played by Germany in the cold war, it is exceedingly obvious that they deserve to be in the game. It can even be argued that the Germans are THE most important cultural group in Europe. Remember, the Franks who founded France were a Germanic people, as were the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes who eventually became known as the English. If you just look at the facts, niether of these civs can possibly be left out. Ciao.

 

[Xen]

i wudn't really say that - up until the 19th century, china was always regarded as a large and impressive nation, even to europeans, who searched around the world (literally) for a way to get there. there they were surprised at the idea of daily bathing (elizabeth i supposedly boasted that she only took a bath once), and were surprised at the level of advancement the chinese had. it was only by the 19th century, after bad policies of isolationism and aggressive european practices (dun forget they drugged up half of china w/ opium), that china declined to the point where conflicts and eventually imperalistic practices by european countries occured. perhaps this is the period u're referring to, but i wudn't call it barbarism - i dun think it reached that level, no doubt they looked down upon the chinese up until recently, but i wudn't call it barbarism.

anyways, just wanted to toss in my two cents. heh.

perhaps you wouldnt- but I would You have to remember; the European view of the world before the 20th century has almost been the one that is commonlly expressed in the art movment known as "orientalism"- the east is strange; it is dark, it is feminine, it is secrative; and it is inferior; ion th emovment known as orientalis, which was when the western world actually began to learn about other areas of the world, it was only under the justifacation that to be proper ruler sover these lands, one must know the local cultures and custums of those areas; though that never meant that before the 20th century, a european, educated or not, ever gave a second though as to weather the non-european world was cultured or not; they were by definition for them, non-western in culture, and thus inferior.

as for bathing; the protestan reformation is to blame for that, when religious fundamentlaism re-pervaded european life in Northern europe; in souther european areas, such as Italy, where santiation was actually forwarded, as had been the practice since before the Time of Rome, one notices that diseases, such as th eplague affected these areaslightilly, or for some some communties, not at all.

During this era; and indeed, through all history, you cant judge all europe on the same basis, you need to at least divide it into east, north, and west, some times with areas overlapping more then one area.

 

[Xen]

I think Xen was joking

actually, i wasnt; that dosent mean I myself hold the same view; I dont; I'm well enough educated to knwo the various advances due to the orient in general, and more often then not, specificlly China; but that dosent stop the fact that the western world has viewed china only as a source of goods, and nothign else of value beyonf that, except, at one point, as a vas tmarket place for the western worlds own produced goods.

 

[Vael]

Not a lot of people necessarily know about Germany, esp. in the U.S. I know some people thought the U.S. hasn't been around long enough to be included. But if we're talking world influence, you can't leave them out.

Really? Everyone I know recognizes them as a great power. I don't think I've ever seen anyone say the Germans shouldn't be a Civ. Even people who only want culture groups as civs (to make room for more non-Europeans, I suppose) mention the "Germanics" to be included.

 

[dc82]

actually, i wasnt; that dosent mean I myself hold the same view; I dont; I'm well enough educated to knwo the various advances due to the orient in general, and more often then not, specificlly China; but that dosent stop the fact that the western world has viewed china only as a source of goods, and nothign else of value beyonf that, except, at one point, as a vas tmarket place for the western worlds own produced goods.

i disagree... i don't think china was really seen as an "uncivilized" or inferior country really until the imperialist era - before then, from ancient times, china was known as this far yet advanced kingdom - the fact was that it was so respected and intruiging that it spurred traders to look for routes to china to trade. after seeing the degredation of china from years of isolationism, then europe decided to treat china w/ the same mentality it did w/ the rest of the world.

 

[Xen]

i disagree... i don't think china was really seen as an "uncivilized" or inferior country really until the imperialist era - before then, from ancient times, china was known as this far yet advanced kingdom - the fact was that it was so respected and intruiging that it spurred traders to look for routes to china to trade. after seeing the degredation of china from years of isolationism, then europe decided to treat china w/ the same mentality it did w/ the rest of the world.

"looking for trade", and "respect" are two very different things; You dont have to liek someone to buy somthignt hey have that you want, or to sell them somthign that you have, but woudl rather have money for; EUropeans looked for a quick route to China in order to get an ecnomic advatage in europe; just for to going to China for the sake of visiting China; before the Imperialist era mind you, the though of "China", or rather "Cathay" as being inferior was more pervasive, as no one really knew anythign about China; it was big, it had alot of people, and you coudl get exotic goods from it; that was about the extent that people knew about china; not much, and it didnt change even after Marco Polo's famous visit to the land; they didnt know enough about China itself to know of anythign to respect; add this into an era fo extream chest beating the world over, when every nation was caliming it was the best thing since sliced bread, surmounting a stil barelly passed age of extream religious warfare, and its not a very grand time for europeans- or any oen really- even considerign that "strangers" woudl be even near the same leval that a nation might place itself, inits own mind at.

 

[dc82]

no, in fact, word of china was famous among european leaders - in fact, even word about confucius's wisdom was spread to europe. while it was true that they were looking for economic advantages among one another, up until later in the 18/19th centuries, europe did imagine the china as being a respectable nation. as internal strife continued within china, and poor policies taken by the government, china then fell far behind europe, and their attitidudes changed - remember, early european emissaries were willing to bow before china leaders - something that would be unheard of even amongnst one another. so yeah it really matters when in the timeline u're talking about.