1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

The 4 rules of Wonder addiction

Discussion in 'Civ3 Strategy Articles' started by Ision, Dec 7, 2003.

  1. Heroes

    Heroes Heroes of Might and Magic

    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    869
    I agree to your main idea, but pyramids is probably not a good example :egypt: At high levels, you have almost zero chance to build pyramids, so just forget about it ... Longevity is, OTOH, very likely to be built by human, but it's too late.
     
  2. Drakan

    Drakan Voluntas Omnia Vincit

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,371
    Location:
    Bloomberg
    Longevity is something you should avoid at all costs, unless you foresee a nuclear war.
     
  3. Dominus Romae

    Dominus Romae Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Messages:
    256
    I am always a wonder fan, but I will cut some of my habits. At least not in my actual game, as the babs, trying a cultural 100K victory on warlord.

    Longevity should come in the Ancient Ages.

    Thanks!
     
  4. SimpleMonkey

    SimpleMonkey King

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    944
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, Near the Trees
    I respectfully disagree. Longevity can mess you up if you don't use it well -- producing two new citizens at the same time right when a city is at its food limit can mean see-sawing back and forth beteeen starving down that one extra citizen and then building two more. And losing your WLTK day while your citizen is starving. :( However, if you've built your cities with some overlap, then you can micromanage your tiles, swapping them between cities, so that you end up with exactly enough food for all your city's pop. Max pop means max production.

    Now, many of your oldest cities will have long since gotten to max size long before you get to build Longevity anyway. So where Longevity really pays off is when you're in late game wars. Rapid repopulation with native citizens means that you can starve or pop-rush a caputured enemy civ down to almost nothing and then quickly have it back up running with a sizable population of happy natives. And of course you can be producing settlers and/or workers at an awesome rate in your core to fill up those captured cities as well, with Longevity ensuring that you're rebuilding those converted citizens almost as fast as you make them. All in all, I find Longevity pretty useful. I just with that it came earlier in the game, like with Sanitation, so that it would really pay off.
     
  5. Drakan

    Drakan Voluntas Omnia Vincit

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,371
    Location:
    Bloomberg
    That's exactly my point. If it came before, it would be very useful. Longetivity messes up my carefully MM cities with starvation/unhappyness issues.

    I find Longetivity useful should they nuke you. However most of my games are well-over before Longetivity comes in to play. You'll find that in the HOF forum, where all players who go for maximum score neglect it because it messes up the careful MM of their cities (you even have a very detailed report on why you shouldn't build it when milking by no less than SirPleb himself). By the late game they are all milking for high score and do not build this wonder.

    However, a normal player IMHO shouldn't go for this wonder either unless he foresees he's going to be nuked and the late-game wars will be abundant and decisive.

    Your point of using core cities to produce workers/settlers to join newly conquered cities on your empire's outskirts is good. But as I normally play with a civ that has the agricultural trait, my cities already grow fast enough I believe. It really does depend what you are going to use it for. In your case, I find it's a very valid point and useful, but almost no one bothers to do that.

    I just think it's one of the least useful GWs, but hey that's just my personal opinion and can be rebutted. ;)
     
  6. SimpleMonkey

    SimpleMonkey King

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    944
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, Near the Trees
    Actually, I'll have to admit that if my game has lasted into the modern age, I'll often be pushing for maximum culture at that point, and so will build just about any wonder. I'll have enough of a tech lead and have such a productive core that wonder-building is a minor sideline, say between spaceship parts or ICBMs. :)

    I think that we both agree that Longevity requires careful management or it will cause more harm than good. I just think that it can be worth it, so long as a player is willing to do the necessary micromanagement and has built with enough overlap to shift some tiles around between cities. Or you can just let the AI have it and let him worry about the unhappiness issues with alternating overpopulation and starvation. We all know how good the AI is at micromanaging cities. :lol:
     
  7. Drakan

    Drakan Voluntas Omnia Vincit

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,371
    Location:
    Bloomberg
    :lol: yes.
     
  8. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2002
    Messages:
    6,489
    Consider building a settler and library for 110 shields, instead of Longevity for 1000 shields!
     
  9. SimpleMonkey

    SimpleMonkey King

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    944
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, Near the Trees
    By the Modern Age, if I'm working on cranking out the culture points, everybody would have already long-since gotten a library and university. (Last game I was trying to out-pace the Babylonians for a culture victory, so with hefty military in place, I was using civil engineers to put every culture producer there is in even my most corrupt border towns. It's the only reason I can think of to build a coloseum. Oh yeah, and then I captured Babylon and used bombers to turn every productive tile Hamurabi had into craters. It was fun.)
     
  10. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    29,177
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    I think that's why you need the settler as well - to build a town for the library :) When you've built that one you could go ahead and do it again ... and again. Fast or high scoring 100K culture wins are achieved by building very densely and rushing culture in every town.
     
  11. Holy Despot

    Holy Despot Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    25
    Location:
    Bucharest,Romania
    Congragulations!

    Your article is absolutely amazing.:)
    I must say I once also had this WONDER ADDICTION when I was a beginner but now it seems I am going in the opposite direction.I am building a lot of settlers, military units,improvements so that my capitol is a huge ''settler farm''.Is there a way to grow a huge empire and also control a great number of wonders ? Mmm... Hope I will succed.

    Holy Despot:Veni,Vidi,Vici :king:
     
  12. SimpleMonkey

    SimpleMonkey King

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    944
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, Near the Trees
    Yes. It's called using your military to take over other civs after they've so thoughtfully built the wonders for you. :goodjob:
     
  13. Holy Despot

    Holy Despot Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    25
    Location:
    Bucharest,Romania
    Simple Monkey:It's called using your military to take over other civs after they've so thoughtfully built the wonders for you.

    Yes I always like when I conquer a city with a wonder and I also know how to kill an enemy AI which annoys me.:lol:
    Oh and another thing, capturing a Wonder from an enemy civ DOESN'T provide you with any culture at all,it just offers you its bonus.
    That is to say you can only develop your culture by building them not by conquering them.Anyway it's fun conquering them for their bonus(if they are not obsolete).
     
  14. phoenix_sprite

    phoenix_sprite King

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2006
    Messages:
    793
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    thank you, I just bought civ 3 (transition from civ 4 to 3 is hard) and i'll take it in consideration
     
  15. Rainbo

    Rainbo Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1
    What a great forum. I too am a wonder junky.

    After reading some of the posts here, I played a game where I built no wonders. I lost the game but got a score 3 times higher then I had ever gotten.

    Currently I am only building wonders that might precipitate a golden age and I leave the rest alone except for one or two small wonders.

    I have been playing randomized games and am enjoying the new perspective since over the years I got in the habit of only playing certain civs.

    Thanks again. You got me out of the rut I've been in and I am learning/relearning things about the game everyday.

    I hope to be ready to play online soon lol.
     
  16. molesworth

    molesworth Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    201
    Location:
    UK
    I agree wholeheartedly with Ision. There are however several Wonders that are often a must have in my opinion. These are the Great Lighthouse - your Galleys can explore and meet new Civs more safely. This is invaluable. Although you could argue that you could achieve this by trading communication with other Civs but then you have to wait until the discovery of Navigation (IIRC). Magellan's - essential - could make difference between your transport going that one extra tile to unload reinforcements, or not and losing a beseiged city. Who wouldn't want Adam Smiths' Trading? And both Copernicus and Newton's? As you will see these are all Wonders that don't become obsolete except the Great Lighthouse which is nice to have but not essential. The others I would say are too beneficial to pass up lightly.
     
  17. MAS

    MAS Deity

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    2,080
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    With 400 shields, you could build 13 galleys, or 26 curragh. And chances are, you will need to sacrifice far less than that to suicide missions to make contact with the other continent.

    Knowing your transport will move only 5 instead of 6, all you have to do is compensate your attack plan accordingly. If you are losing a city, you where doing something wrong there to begin with. You should have foreseen this, and move enough forces there to begin with.

    I never lose cities to the AI, only through flips, and even then I made sure I can handle the flip, so it doesn't completely ruin things for me.

    Of course I would want these wonders if i can get them, but they are far from essential.

    The only truly essential wonder is the UN.
    Besides that, it is normally worth shooting for ToE and Hover, as these late game wonders are almost always easy to get.
     
  18. WaterDragoon

    WaterDragoon Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    99
    Maybe i am missing something but isn't this thread alittle broad and generalized? No wonders? come on. but it's okay to build hoover dam that i see in so many posts?

    If you have nothing left to build and you don't need units or want to pay for
    a WHOLE mess of units then wonders are better then wealth. Plus there are serisou reprucussions to allowing a wonder to be built by the A.I. For instance i was just told that it will be difficult to defeat a foe in my current campaign because they have the great wall. Or what if the A.I builts Zsu academy and can have barracks in every city free? Game over. just some of my thoughts as a newbie, the thought process i run through when i am playing....
     
  19. MAS

    MAS Deity

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    2,080
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    This is just like an AI who builds the pyramids, if he is on your continent, then it is as if he is waving a flag with a sign that says: "please attack me and take my Sun Tzu city from me"

    Don't get me wrong, I do build these wonders if I can, the idea behind this thread is just to teach new players that wonders are not essential.
    If you can live without these wonders, you are a step closer to winning at higher difficulty levels.

    And all that we are saying is that, yes, you can live without them, the AI building them is not "game over", not by far.
     
  20. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,540
    Location:
    Medford, MA
    On low levels (chieftain and warlord), you can build all the wonders without any trouble.

    On medium levels (regent-> emperor), you can build a few AA wonders and most of the medieval wonders you want - after that, wonders are yours.

    On higher levels (demigod and deity), you can get an AA/medieval wonders if you really want it, but you really need to figure out if it's worth while. You can still get the IA and later wonders.

    On Sid, you need to do a lot of planning or picking the right combination of maps/civs to get any AA wonders, and you may never get one at all.

    The reason for no wonder "rule" is because at high levels, trying to build 2 wonders at a time will often end up with you getting wiped out.
     

Share This Page