The AH Debate

[rabidveggie]

What did Fredrick and Washington do that measured up with Stalin, Mao, and Hitler?

 

[Pres. Slayback]

Well, not anything that measures up to those ones but Frederick was extremely tyrannical. Washington massacred the Native Americans while being a major for the English though.

 

[Hawe Hawe]

Well, not anything that measures up to those ones but Frederick was extremely tyrannical. Washington massacred the Native Americans while being a major for the English though.

This is ridiculous. Friedrich/Frederick surely was an absolutist monarch, but tyrannical? He was the first to establish religious and partially economic freedom in prussia.
It's true, that he began some unneccessary and bloody preemptive wars with nearly all neighboring countries and states, but tyrannical in my opinion is determined by the treatment of the home population and internal politics. Hitler absolutely qualifies for that like Stalin or Mao, but Frederick and even more so Washington?????

 

[Psyringe]

Well, not anything that measures up to those ones but Frederick was extremely tyrannical.

If so, he was certainly the only "extreme tyrant" that lost a case in court against a "lowly" miller. I don't think there's good evidence to call him an extreme tyrant - Hawe already summed it up nicely.

 

[Menzies]

Shut up, shut up, shut... we're not talking about Adolf Fredrick or George Hitler, no and definently not იოსებ ბესარიონის ძე ჯუღაშვილი. Oh yeah, georgian keyboard. Take that biatches. This is about Adolf Hitler, screw everyone else, putting a post without the name Hitler mentioned here is worth about as donkeys testicles in the centre of Hobart and about as much sense.

 

[Yeekim]

AH certainly had that little something about him. Something that still makes people with apparently unstable mentality write comments like the one above.

Hard to say whether this is pro or contra to his inclusion, tho.

Still, by taking Stalin and Mao in while rejecting AH, Firaxis manifests double standards. Should be one way or another, currently there is an unjustified bias.

 

[Menzies]

Unjustified, hahahaha....

There just looking out for people going mental at his inclusion. Hitler's 'Empire' unlike Mao's and Stalin's was metaphorically and physically punched in the face, raped by Russians, beaten whilst on the ground and then raped some more by said Russians. There is a massive political bais against him unlike Stalina and Mao. Though horrible people, they weren't against the allies during the war [or at least not all of it], they may have massecred millions of people and made mistakes that cost even more in famine, but really, these horrors were not shown in the same way as what the Germans or the Japanese had done. The Gulags were deep into the USSR and after the war behind the Iron Curtain, people didn't and still don't see pictures of these attrocities as much as he see and here about the holocaust. It is more of the winners write the History of the world, not those who got raped over and over again by Soviet troops [note: did not mention the western allies because they are lesser know to rape the women of the cities they conquered on the way to Berlin]. Hitler won't be in the expansion. The truth is Hitler is still the enemy, people still associate him as the great king of evil. To tell the truth I never really though Hitler would be in this expansion, I was just debating all of these damn points about "Hitler was a bad leader... on the other hand 'Franco'/'Mussolini'/'generic aweful 1930- leader' was amazing" by joe blow of the American ins... te... tude, thats''' wite, instredude of intramtet diplamas. I just hate it.

 

[Holycannoli]

Both sides are correct here.
But the side that says that Stalin, Mao and all the others are in so why shouldn't Hitler is missing something

Sure, Stalin, Mao, Frederick, Washington, and the whole lot did horrific things in their time but their great works are better known than their horrible ones, Hitler on the other one is the exact opposite, it would be bad for PO.

It's true that including Hitler in the game might be bad for PO, especially in Germany where I hear it would get the game banned, but isn't it also bad to not include him? He is one of the most important figures of the 20th century and indeed in all of history. Not "important" in a good way of course! Evil men are important to history too.

If Civ 4 were a WWII game then it would be ludicrous to exclude Hitler but include Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin. Civ 4 is much broader than that, but it still includes WWII leaders.

Plus I have to be honest here, I want to see how they make Hitler into one of Civ 4's cartoony leaderheads.

I just don't like that the whole reason Hitler isn't included is because the game would get banned in Germany. Hitler is extremely important in history and Civ 4 is all about rewriting history. I mean, who wouldn't love to kick the crap out of Hitler as Montezuma or Gandhi? Maybe don't even make him playable; just make him an AI-only leader that makes crazy stupid decisions and is so aggressive and such a jerk that almost every civ ingame declares war on him just because he's an annoying jerk. Make him like AI Montezuma only with dumb military choices.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Let us not forget: if Hitler were alive today, he would have a day-time talk show in which special guest Justin Timberlake shows us his butt. Family Guy references FTW.

 

[Heeringas]

Germany UB and UU (in Warlords) are both from the times of Hitler!!

Yes, I think Hitler should be in the game. "Western history" as we read today is written by winners, we would read complitely different history if Naziz have won...Churchill and stalin and specialy Roosevelt would be horrible evils...

(and they all were...That fukin Roosy for example murdered Japanise with A-bomb and DIDN`T give Germanny peace when they asked it 1944 or something, but wanted to punish them...I consider those as war crimes as well)

They read different history in Russia than in Finland, or in vietnam and USA or China and Japan... Things are looked from either complitely or just from little bit different angle.


Hitelr started the War, in a way, but at that time war was coming anyway...Hitler just wanted to unite Europe before Russian attack...

I have to say I´m not Nazi myself, but I gratefully thank Wehrmacht for their great help for saving Finland...when everybody else turned their backs on a small country...

I just want to say things aint balck and white or red and blue...something good is something bad in some other point of view...

That´s why I think it would be time to forgive Germanny...

And let´s all cross our hands that USA is not doing any stupid things around Chinese borders or middle east...

 

[Heeringas]

And what is RIDICILOUS is that one can be sentend to jail from Holocaust denial... (lucyly not in Finland)
But one is allowed to say whatever about MAO or Finnish or whoever one can marry a same sex and do almost whatever...

why on earth you can´t say no jews were systematicly killed???

 

[GeorgeOP]

I also find it funny that everyone always talks about the Jews being killed. Over 12 million people were killed in the camps, about half of which were Jewish. Catholics, communists, homosexuals, diseased, Slavs, and other non-desirables were also systematicly killed.

The US Air Command General who ordered the fire bombing of Japan (forgot his name) said after the war he was glad the US won, because if they lost he would have been hanged for crimes against humanity.

History is made by the winners. There were crimes on both sides. Germany was bad, but so was Russia, China, US, and others. However, AH can not be in the game if Firaxis wants to sell it in Germany. Until that law is repealled, there is nothing Firaxis can do.

 

[rabidveggie]

Umm wasn't Roosevelt dead before the atomic bomb was dropped on Japan? Also they didn't give peace to Germany in 1944 because it would not have been an UNCONDITIONAL surrender and Hitler would have probably remained in power. The Holocaust would have likely continued with millions more dead. Refusing a countries terms for a ceasefire after they lost the advantage is not a war crime its smart. Also Germany's attack on Stalin was unprovoked and foolish. Hitlers greatest mistake of the war. Stalin was so surprised by the attack that he ordered his troops not to attack Hitler's troops for fear of provoking him. Does that sound like a nation about to attack another? I'm also disgusted by people who think the Holocaust was an elaborate hokes. I don't know what the hell is wrong with Finland but if some nut job spread the word that the Holocaust never happened it could happen again. I'm all for including Hitler, but arguments like Heeringas who is clearly a Nazi sympathizer makes me think twice about including a leader who might encourage others to go down his path.

 

[Heeringas]

Rabidveggie:
There is nothing much wrong in Finland

Sorry about the historical mistakes I made, Those weren´t my points, I could have used A and B insted of H and S and R.
B was maybe surprised when C attaced, but A wanted that this all happens...

Point about the holocaust denial was, that in this Anyway freakyn unmoral world, why it is prohibited to say "no JEws were killed." It´s ilegal to to JUST say or write it. Point is: why you can´t say that while you can say almost what other else in this world and not to be sentend to jail...I didn´say I deny Holocaust...
I´m not nazi and I didn´t say I thank naziz nor Hitler.
I said I thank Wermacht and all those german grandpearents that died beside Our ones...because they have to, not because they were bad...

And why I said that war was coming anyway...They all let it happen because they all needed it...war is important for human civilizations...
germanny didn´t build its military in a day, but bought materials and loaned money for exp. form USA for some 10 years before...they could have killed hitler...like we could kill bush...but nobody did/do it...cause leaders need war...

And you know it will happen again and again and again...No eternal peace is possible.

 

[Heeringas]

One more thing...holocaust denial should be allowed. for many reason but at least Because that matter really should be talked out... No its in "mystery" a always good way to end conversation, Hitelr was Evil.point...

USA is spreading the democracy around the world, Democracy were no other opinion is allowed...Is that really freedom of speech, democracy?

 

[Heeringas]

Just wondering... I don´t have clear opinion...
I wasn´t alive nor have I read much about the subject...

But one thing I have opinion about...I don´t take things I hear and read just like that...I try to think about them and I paint my own history about it.(when I hear new things I weight my history with new info and if I accept it I paint my one again)...
it´s as good as so called "right history" wich is aslo written by some person and it´s colored by "sensors"...(also in the States u know, not ONLY in the Axis of EVIL u know )

...ash...difficult to explain...my english is horrible...sorry if I say things wrong or get some pissed

Heil B..h

 

[hossam]

yeah thats true that makes the german goverment like hitler ,fasicst . that if they dont allow hollocaust denial.

 

[hossam]

and for that matter ah should be in the game the germans will just have to deal with thats he part of their history and its nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[hossam]

and yes roosevelt was dead truman droped the a bombs

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Three successive posts by the same guy, then 3 successive by another guy....kinda sums up this thread really