The AH Debate

[Corn]

. . .i guess other nations history had some leaders who acted similar and they should be excluded from civ also, but i don't have that knowledge, so i settle with my opinion about hitler. . .

This is one of the arguments that kills me. While I in no way agree with Hitler's actions throughout his life, your OPINION of his actions should not influence whether or not he is in the game as a leader. If I had to play the Civ IV that you seem to want, there'd be no wars for resources, no "whipping," no refused trades/demands, etc.

How many players, proudly calling themselves "warmongers" have done presumably worse things within the game than Hitler did in reality? The only difference is that the actions in-game are masked by pretty game icons. When you capture an enemy worker, do you assume that you put them up in a popular bed and breakfast to rest and cope with the loss of their freedom/culture before putting them back to work? If every game that you play is peaceful and happy, then maybe you should try some solitaire.

I'm not trying to come off as irate, nor as a fool, but YOUR ideas should not influence what I do. (For the record, I'd never choose Hitler, anyway, but that's a moot point.) I am an independant human being playing a game. This game would be incredibly boring and virtually unreplayable if only peaceful and kind actions were available. I'd ask what civs you'd remove, based on your post, but I couldn't care less.

For the record, I almost always play as peacefully as possible, unless I am getting severly pressured/threatened. In D&D games, I nearly always end up as neutral/good or chaotic/good, and have a hard time being evil in any way, particularly in real life. I just don't want you do to decide which leaders/civs I can choose, at the end of the day.

Censorship is crap.

 

[Holycannoli]

You know, I had an friend in high school from eastern europe (won't say which country) who was a bit of a nazi sympathizer. Reminds me a bit of Heeringas and his justification for German actions in WWII. This friend of mine was actually surprised that here in the US we don't hate jews and gypsies, didn't hate Russia anymore (this was back in the early 90s), and did hate nazi Germany. He hated jews, gypsies, Russians, and basically any minority group. And he loved to call himself and his ancestry the only true "white people" in the world. Oh man did it take a long time to change him! I'm not sure we actually did; I think he may have just been humoring us and harboring his real feelings in secret.

(And Heeringas, I really hope you aren't trying to compare Bush with Hitler! That's like comparing Ahmadinejad with Churchill. And you probably wouldn't like my conservative views so I won't get into them here)

I'm quite surprised that some european countries, especially the ones that were allied with nazi Germany, still hold sympathies for them. It's like they're still in denial, just like Russian sympathizers are still in denial, even in 2007, about how evil Stalin and the Soviet Union was (IMO it's one tyrant being attacked by another tyrant). Heck, many Middle Easterners are still in denial over the Holocaust! How the hell can someone still be in denial about that? Are they saying the American forces that liberated those camps were lying about the whole thing? It's just some big elaborate fabrication? And all those near-death prisoners were some hoax? And I find it funny that these same idiots then criticize the US about it's modern foreign policy and involvement in the Middle East. Get a clue before you criticize the most influential and important country in the entire world.

What does this have to do with Hitler not being in Civ 4 you ask? Why am I so off topic you ask? Some people just make me mad, and the more I read these strange views from people in inconsequential countries the angrier I get. Especially all the anti-Bush people who don't even live in the US...nothing right now makes me angrier than people that just jump on bandwagons like that simply because "everyone else thinks that way". (I'm not pro or anti Bush btw. I have my own views...I don't simply adopt other peoples' views like a lemming, like I see many college students and other so-called "intellectuals" do)

I really dislike how Firaxis denies a Hitler leader to the entire world simply because Germany won't allow it. How about releasing a different version in Germany? China did it. China censored the crap out of Civ 4. Let Germany do the same, and give us Hitler in Civ 4 to use as a nuclear whipping boy!

 

[Jondalar]

Get a clue before you criticize the most influential and important country in the entire world.

And that, my friend, is why the majority of the world doesn't like the United States.

 

[Psyringe]

Heck, many Middle Easterners are still in denial over the Holocaust! How the hell can someone still be in denial about that? Are they saying the American forces that liberated those camps were lying about the whole thing? It's just some big elaborate fabrication? And all those near-death prisoners were some hoax?

Actually, yes. And I think it's important to understand this, because if you don't, then you probably can't see why including Hitler would be a bad idea.

Holocaust denial is by no means limited to the Middle East. Here in Germany we have very active underground organizations who spread misinformation with exactly the content that you mentioned. This misinformation often comes veiled as seemingly scientific information, and even if it may surprise you: For someone not already informed, it is *not* easy to tell fact from myth in this case. There is neo-nazi propaganda going on which is, while factually horribly wrong, very well presented and technically well-designed. Now imagine you're living in an environment where your friends, parents, father-figures, people you respect etc., all tell you that the Holocaust were a myth designed by the Allies to justify their actions in the war. Would you *really* be able to unveil the truth? It might be harder than you think.

Nazism is, unfortunately, not a thing of the past. It's not dead. It's sleeping, it's not very powerful right now, but given the "right" environment, it could certainly become strong again. And that's why many people in Germany very firmly oppose using Hitler in a game - they feel that this is making Hitler "sociable" again, and they don't want this because they see the danger.

And I find it funny that these same idiots then criticize the US about it's modern foreign policy and involvement in the Middle East. Get a clue before you criticize the most influential and important country in the entire world.

Honestly, imho statements like this are definitely the wrong way to bring people to your side ... actually it's the *right* way to alienate other people even further.

 

[hossam]

just because you dont live in a country doesnt mean you cant criticize a leader especially if that country is the "most influential and important country in the entire world".

 

[Rancid Sushi]

How many players, proudly calling themselves "warmongers" have done presumably worse things within the game than Hitler did in reality? The only difference is that the actions in-game are masked by pretty game icons.

Um, no. The difference is that it's only a game and you're not actually hurting anyone. World War 2 was not a game. Thanks for comparing CIV warmongers to Hitler.

 

[hossam]

yes well world war 2 is over. so i really must know who would be offended
by hitler i dont think any surviviors of world war 2 play civilization.

 

[Corn]

Um, no. The difference is that it's only a game and you're not actually hurting anyone. World War 2 was not a game. Thanks for comparing CIV warmongers to Hitler.

I was not comparing a game to a real life war. If anything, I was stating that Hitler's inclusion should be made more legitimate by the fact that certain playing styles emulate his real-life actions

Your strawman seems to be falling off its pole.

 

[hossam]

please somebody tell me why peole are offended by hitler!!!

 

[Jondalar]

please somebody tell me why peole are offended by hitler!!!

Try reading the last eight pages worth of posts. That should give you a pretty good idea.

 

[hossam]

yes well all i understood was that he killed jews and did some crimes against humanity and got his country in deep sh*t but is their any permenant dmage i mean like the jews wouldnt have gotten israel if not for the holocaust and germany seems to be doing fine now so whats the big deal .

 

[Heeringas]

Holycannoli
there wasn´t just two tyrans in WW2, they all were...
Also your R and T and C..

yes US has the hegemony now,but... You and me hopefully are not alive anymore then, but if we are, you as american would probalby in somewere "camping" ...
West is going to collapse, it is just matter of time... Not any one culture has been eternal...

So called Euro American civilization is going to get some kick on Arch ...

Finland...who the fuk cares we are a pop of 5 million thats like a one relatively small city in the World...

Comparing Bush with hitler was kind of joke... US media compared Saddam with Hitler...thats funny...How com?


I have been living in US some time and what was teatched in High school ther about the History was amazing and things that were on the news...Man that was just plain sh--t...History was about Civil war, again about civil war and then when we finally arrived to the times of WW2 it was just about the Pacific war and how US saved the world...then that in Europe thre was a Really bad man called Hitler who killed Jews ....and that was it...huu...then well I don´t even mention TV news...if you don´t see its almost nothing but probaganda your blind...sorry to get you mad, but most of American can´t see world in right light because your Probaganda machine is Amzingly strong and effedtive

 

[hossam]

yes i must say that american news is very biased and american history is a history of war but still why dont people want to get over hitler

 

[Psyringe]

yes well world war 2 is over. so i really must know who would be offended
by hitler i dont think any surviviors of world war 2 play civilization.

I know at least two people (both Civ players) who lost many members of their families in the concentration camps or in the war. Is it really so hard to understand why they might be offended if the person responsible for the deaths of their family members grinned at them from the diplomacy screen, comic-style?

 

[Heeringas]

Well, I don´t get offended seeing comic style Stalin...even tought my granpa was killed in war... Well he wasn´t in concentration camp cause he was shot to death in afield, but still he died cause one hell hore wanted to rule the east side of the world... But I´m over that, I don´t hate russians nor Germans...I think that stalin is quite hillarious looking (in the game)...I think Hitler would be really funny (like bismarck is) and fun to kill away already with axemen


People, hey take a breath, we are talking about the civ here right, eh...why would anybody get offended by the computer game?

 

[Rancid Sushi]

I was not comparing a game to a real life war. If anything, I was stating that Hitler's inclusion should be made more legitimate by the fact that certain playing styles emulate his real-life actions

Your strawman seems to be falling off it's pole.

relax, I hate arguing. I simply misread what you were saying. I wouldn't like Hitler in the game because the thought of him possibly founding Judaism is quite obscene.

 

[Heeringas]

Heh....Hitler founding Judaism would be just...fun...

I like this thread...ha haa

IT is quite suprising how much that funny chaplin looking man still affecting peoples minds... and causing hate between people =one step towards new war, keeping the wounds open so that we can have round 3 the great revange or something, who wants that...
Don´t we have problems with todays leaders as well, why don´t we try to prevent one new "Aatu" or "Joose" takeing the lead tomorrow...

In US there is quite strong minds against Iran and some muslims in general or many Europians (not me) want to get rid of muslims...For example in Holland and in Denmark...IT wasn´t Hitler who started hateing Jews in Europe, that had a looong history...
How long it takes that some madman desides to start burning muslims?

And imagine how strong will be the probaganda in the next round...With that it really doesn´t take long and we all hate what leaders want to...and that little amount of people that are wise enough to see trhought the probaganda will be burnt with hated ones.

Probaganda is strong and it´s real. All sides are doing it, not just Evil side...the one who controls minds controls all...

 

[Psyringe]

Well, I don´t get offended seeing comic style Stalin...even tought my granpa was killed in war...

And the point of saying that is ...? There *are* people who would be offended by including Hitler (you can see that very easily in the thread), so do you think their opinion doesn't count? Do you think that someone who would be offended because his grand parents have been killed *shouldn't* be offended because *you* aren't? Who are you to tell other people how they should feel?

W
why would anybody get offended by the computer game?

Well, I gave you two reasons, other reasons can easily be found in the thread. Frankly, I donÄt understand what you're doing. You're asking for an explanation, and when you're given one, your reaction is "But *I* don't think that way", and asking the same question again. You seem to be looking for a pointless discussion much more than for actual explanations.

Btw, for the record: I wouldn't be offended either if Hitler were included. I'd find it rather distasteful, and a poor choice, and I'd feel a bit sad that the worst example of leadership that Germany ever had were chosen to represent my country in this game, but I wouldn't be offended. Still, I can easily understand why others *would* be offended, and I don't find it at all difficult to respect their feelings. I really wonder why that seems to be so difficult for some other people here.

 

[Holycannoli]

Btw, for the record: I wouldn't be offended either if Hitler were included. I'd find it rather distasteful, and a poor choice, and I'd feel a bit sad that the worst example of leadership that Germany ever had were chosen to represent my country in this game, but I wouldn't be offended. Still, I can easily understand why others *would* be offended, and I don't find it at all difficult to respect their feelings. I really wonder why that seems to be so difficult for some other people here.

Well I think it's the fact that they included Stalin who is arguably just as bad a human being, or worse, than Hitler. And they included Churchill and Roosevelt. The only other "major" WWII leader they left out is the emperor of Japan. Having Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt just makes Hitler's absence very noticable.

I would respect their feelings too, if only they'd censor their own version of the game like China did. Censor it all you want. Because that's what you want right? You want to censor Hitler out of everything. So do it. But it doesn't mean I'll like the fact that a gaming company would rather not include Hitler at all than just give Germany a version they can censor to their hearts' content. Hitler really needs to be included to complete the "primary leaders of WWII" leader collection.

relax, I hate arguing. I simply misread what you were saying. I wouldn't like Hitler in the game because the thought of him possibly founding Judaism is quite obscene.

Umm I have to say, I never really thought about that. I keep forgetting that Civ 4 now has real life religions. That could indeed be a problem. I would find it more comical than obscene, but it's still just too sensitive an issue. I wouldn't want to exclude Hitler though just because there's a chance his AI would found or convert to judaism.

Honestly, imho statements like this are definitely the wrong way to bring people to your side ... actually it's the *right* way to alienate other people even further.

I don't care about bringing people to my side anymore. I've found that people already believe in their opinions on the US and nothing is gonna change them. Too bad for them. I guess the US should just stay out of world affairs, like helping tsunami victims, preventing genocide in Bosnia, liberating Kurds and Iraqis from Saddam, providing tons of food to poor countries, allowing thousands of illegal immigrants to work and live here (although that may change soon ), providing Russia with the material means to defeat nazi Germany (how many people are still in denial about THAT?).

Is the US doing the right thing in the Middle East? No. It's allowing Iran to exist. The US is doing the wrong thing by ending it's offensive with Iraq instead of continuing it with Iran. Someone's gonna have to take them out before it's too late.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

There is one major difference between Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill and Adolf... all of the other people made significant impacts outside of World War II. Roosevelt dealt with the Great Depression; Churchill was Prime Minister in the 50's, I believe, sometime after Clement Atlee, and has the whole "Iron Curtain" fame. Stalin of course was Premier of the USSR until 1953 and presided over many advances. Each of these men, although they're remembered best for WWII probably, made contributions to their countries outside of it.

What did Hitler do? Arguably, everything he did before the war began was in preparation for it--rebuilding the nation, rearming the military, taking the Rhineland... Churchill and Stalin got wrapped up in the Cold War issues, Roosevelt has the Great Depression, but Hitler doesn't have that much that isn't WWII-related.

I'm sure somebody will come along and find a point where I'm wrong, and that's okay. For me personally, seeing Hitler in a scenario would be great. Seeing him in the epic game, however, would strike me as just plain weird. I'd get an odd feeling seeing him build The Great Wall and other wonders, spreading religions, etc. Maybe that's just me.