The AI are Cheats and Liars

[IbnSina]

The AI makes irrational decisions sometimes and it has been my experience that they sometimes seem to be based on point standings rather than logic. Any thoughts on this?

I think that's right. Look at Bamspeedy's article about AI attitude (if you haven't already) - it shows that the AIs are quite conscious of who's on first...

 

[Rubruk]

Some careful preplanning is required. In my current game (standard map, continent,Monarch) I'm on a continent with Korea, Spain, Japan, Mongolia and China. I'm playing India. In the ancient age I tradet a lot. Everyone was friendly towards me. In the very early game I even payed tribute to Mongolia and Japan (once each) since I had to build up infrastructure.

At the beginning of the medieval age, Mongolia is first in the histograph. I had not so much land.

It is completely obvious that the attitude of the AIs will change later in the game !!!

So I attacked Mongolia with initially 20 War elephants, produced a lot more of them and took their 5 most important cities including some wonders. (half of their territory) Those 5 cities were my goal that I have set before the attack. Then I wondered if I should continue, but Japan sent some Samurai. They did not leave so I am in a war with Japan. There is only a small border to Japan so the defense is not too hard for me. Mongolia agreed to peace since they are weakened. Additionally, Cavallery is only 5 turns away, so I think Japan will also loose at least half of their territorry.

A war against Mongolia and Japan at the same time would have been a major problem. Therefore I decided to weaken Mongolia ASAP.

Coming back to the topic AI: all the AI have right of passage agreements. They are trading a lot.The player must trade with them and weaken them one by one. Preplan the strategy for the next 1000 years resp. the next one or two ages, especially guess, who are the opponents and take the INITIATIVE

 

[NewbieHere]

Whenever you see one or two suspicious AI transports approaching your cities, make a trade deal with him/her, sign a RoP and MPP and whatever, this won't change the course of their aggressive transports, but it'll surely give them a blow below the belt.

 

[Old&Slow]

It seems to me that every game I play, the AI civs never stay true to their alliances. They always sign peace treaties when I have a military alliance with them against another team. And they attack me when we've got a right of passage still in effect. I wonder is there any way to make them more trustworthy? It would be nice to have a few civs that you can count on to stay true to their word. Does anyone have any tips on how to go about doing this?

[size=-3]Yay first post![/size]

The overall AI is a total Schizophrenic Bad Joke in the game , all the " Leaders " are completed devoted to beating you, ( which is why they pass free Techs around ) and don`t let anyone tell you that they can " predict " it or make any kind of long range Game plans based on the " knowledge " of it`s actions/reactions to the Human Player and that`s based on over 1,000 hours with the Game on all levels.

You may have noted at the higher levels as you are busy peacefully expanding one AI " Nation " will always attack you, which slows your expansion down , while the others expand & build away.

You may notice that the AI`s never launch a serious attack on each other in the early Game.

You may notice the AI`s know even before they have the Tech. where the rare and important resources will be located on the Map and build near them.

You will see them " unhappy-annoyed" with you because your not in say..Democracy as they are, even though your in a War with one of them and you would screw yourself by moving toward the useless C3 " Democracy " form of Govt. Of couse they will then like you because your stupid and when they all attack you in say 4 turns your finished.

Have you noticed they want $800 Gold and $43 GPT plus your 2 best Techs for their " Dye" and will give you $12 PT and no Techs for your " Furs ".

Did you ever have a great start position on the Map, lots of Techs from the Goody Huts and fast growing Cities and give the AI cheap prices on your Techs and have the AI`s love you...not likely, they all Hate you and will very soon all go to war against you.

Have you ever been at War with one huge AI and while that AI is over-running another nearby AI have that stupid AI try and shake you down for Gold-Techs while it`s Allied with you. ? Oh...and the stupid AI will give the other a ROP through it`s land so it can get to you and kill you, never mine that your the only thing that can save it.

Has an Allied AI`s _Ever_ actually gone to War with you, even to save themselves, more then say 25% of the time ?

You know what..Screw The AI " Leaders" and the their " Relations" with you.

Give then no good deals or good techs. If they have a rare Resource shove a City build right next to it and take it over if you can. Go to War with No Warning so you can capture their workers. If your in the equally useless C3 Republic make peace to stop unrest and then attack them again in 6-8 turns

Kill one or more off as fast as you can in the early Game, without screwing your expansion, and then organize your entire mid game development/ research strategy to killing the rest when you get Modern Tanks-Mech Inf.

It`s really a much better Gaming experience that way and the endless AI Cheats and Cheesy ploys are less annoying.

PS: When you take a useless AI city consider Razing It, that really pisses the AI off. Too bad there is no option to sow the land with Salt so nothing ever grows there again

 

[Old&Slow]

Oh P: S. Under the Heading of : " I Wiill Not Put Up With Weak Game Design Sid !! " if you start a Game with your Capitol located in the lower map corner or edges which happens at least 40% of the time ( you cannot expand in 360 degrees ) OR you find yourself on a entire large Map with NO Salt Peter...( at least 30% of the time ) just Restart.

 

[Crimso]

...if you start a Game with your Capitol located in the lower map corner or edges which happens at least 40% of the time ( you cannot expand in 360 degrees )...

If you are expecting to expand in 360 degrees in every game, you are playing the wrong game. Seiriously dude, that is asking for too much. Oh, I know, it just sucks so hard getting a settler factory and having to move those guys ALL THE WAY OVER to the frontier.

...OR you find yourself on a entire large Map with NO Salt Peter...( at least 30% of the time ) just Restart.

Either you're lying, or your game is genuinely busted
.

 

[Crimso]

mother@#$#$ double post

 

[Aggie]

The overall AI is a total Schizophrenic Bad Joke in the game , all the " Leaders " are completed devoted to beating you, ( which is why they pass free Techs around ) and don`t let anyone tell you that they can " predict " it or make any kind of long range Game plans based on the " knowledge " of it`s actions/reactions to the Human Player and that`s based on over 1,000 hours with the Game on all levels.

Then you play a different game than I do. The AI is stupid and has no real gameplan, I agree. But they do NOT gang up on you. Unlike CIV2 and Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. They also DON'T pass free techs around.

You may have noted at the higher levels as you are busy peacefully expanding one AI " Nation " will always attack you, which slows your expansion down , while the others expand & build away.

You may notice that the AI`s never launch a serious attack on each other in the early Game.

I have played many games where they attack each other in the early game. This Sid level SG is just one of the examples I can show you. The early war between two civs was one of the main reasons for our win.

You may notice the AI`s know even before they have the Tech. where the rare and important resources will be located on the Map and build near them.

This is true. Sadly this bug hasn't been removed every since vanilla civ. Otoh you can profit from it. When an AI crosses my lands to settle near future resources I often let them. This will be one of MY future cities. But I guess that's not your point.

You will see them " unhappy-annoyed" with you because your not in say..Democracy as they are, even though your in a War with one of them and you would screw yourself by moving toward the useless C3 " Democracy " form of Govt. Of couse they will then like you because your stupid and when they all attack you in say 4 turns your finished.

The attitudes of the AI vs you are hardly important. Sure, they determine their potential UN vote, but that vote is easily manipulated. I agree that Democracy is hardly useful and that attitude says nothing about the willingness of the AI to attack you. Just don't play a game trying to please the AI.

Have you noticed they want $800 Gold and $43 GPT plus your 2 best Techs for their " Dye" and will give you $12 PT and no Techs for your " Furs ".

Yes. This happens on higher levels. One of the features of levels above regent is that AI buys and sells their goods below 'marketprices' to another AI. Another feature of the higher levels is that they can build improvements for less shields. Below regent the human has the advantages. Regent is the most honest level.

Did you ever have a great start position on the Map, lots of Techs from the Goody Huts and fast growing Cities and give the AI cheap prices on your Techs and have the AI`s love you...not likely, they all Hate you and will very soon all go to war against you.

This depends on the type of civ you are up against. Less aggressive civs tend to like you (France, India) and more aggressive civs tend to hate you (Zulu, Mongols). But one thing is clear: the bigger you are, the more they hate you. Simple game mechanics, as in Bamspeedy's AI-attitude article

Have you ever been at War with one huge AI and while that AI is over-running another nearby AI have that stupid AI try and shake you down for Gold-Techs while it`s Allied with you. ? Oh...and the stupid AI will give the other a ROP through it`s land so it can get to you and kill you, never mine that your the only thing that can save it.

Has an Allied AI`s _Ever_ actually gone to War with you, even to save themselves, more then say 25% of the time ?

The AI will do anything when the price is right. They also are willing to trade with you while they are planning to sneak attack you. The AI is stupid and bases their deals on short term economics gains.

If your in the equally useless C3 Republic ...

You are right that Republic and Democracy are similar to each other. My conclusion is different though. I consider Republic to be the best government in almost all situations and Democracy not worth the anarchy.

I can understand that you are frustrated about the AI. But you mix up facts and myths here.

 

[Old&Slow]

Either you're lying, or your game is genuinely busted
.

Thanks for the kind words, good luck in your Games and making friends here.....

 

[Old&Slow]

Then you play a different game than I do. The AI is stupid and has no real gameplan, I agree. But they do NOT gang up on you. Unlike CIV2 and Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. They also DON'T pass free techs around.


I have played many games where they attack each other in the early game. This Sid level SG is just one of the examples I can show you. The early war between two civs was one of the main reasons for our win.


This is true. Sadly this bug hasn't been removed every since vanilla civ. Otoh you can profit from it. When an AI crosses my lands to settle near future resources I often let them. This will be one of MY future cities. But I guess that's not your point.


The attitudes of the AI vs you are hardly important. Sure, they determine their potential UN vote, but that vote is easily manipulated. I agree that Democracy is hardly useful and that attitude says nothing about the willingness of the AI to attack you. Just don't play a game trying to please the AI.


Yes. This happens on higher levels. One of the features of levels above regent is that AI buys and sells their goods below 'marketprices' to another AI. Another feature of the higher levels is that they can build improvements for less shields. Below regent the human has the advantages. Regent is the most honest level.


This depends on the type of civ you are up against. Less aggressive civs tend to like you (France, India) and more aggressive civs tend to hate you (Zulu, Mongols). But one thing is clear: the bigger you are, the more they hate you. Simple game mechanics, as in Bamspeedy's AI-attitude article


The AI will do anything when the price is right. They also are willing to trade with you while they are planning to sneak attack you. The AI is stupid and bases their deals on short term economics gains.


You are right that Republic and Democracy are similar to each other. My conclusion is different though. I consider Republic to be the best government in almost all situations and Democracy not worth the anarchy.

I can understand that you are frustrated about the AI. But you mix up facts and myths here.

I think we generally agree with each other about the AI. The only reason I posted in the first place was the endless Newbie`s questions on how to " get along with " or " relate to" the AI civs. You can`t because their responses are for the most part random.

The Diplomacy functions are generally Porked and IMO it`s best to play this as a pure wargame. Thanks for the corrections , you are probably more right then me on some issues. I would look forward to another of your Succession Games AAR`s , it`s really to bad that they have stopped patching these games, and so many poor design decisions were made in Conquests

 

[Bartleby]

Whenever you see one or two suspicious AI transports approaching your cities, make a trade deal with him/her, sign a RoP and MPP and whatever, this won't change the course of their aggressive transports, but it'll surely give them a blow below the belt.(emphasis added)

Be very wary of RoP post railroads. Unless provoked, the AI can only declare war on you by sneak attack, so would you rather they attack your capital or a penny-ante coastal town...

 

[Bloodied66]

One of my problems with the AI is that I suspect that reputation doesn't apply to them. That is, if they break a deal, will all the other AI's refuse to deal with them afterward like they do when you break a deal? Now, ive never tested this, but Im pretty sure they don't, considering the trading that goes on.

 

[Aggie]

I never tested it either, but I assume it does apply to them as well.

 

[Mr. Do]

There's no reason to assume it one way or another- I mean, you'd assume that the AI doesn't know the location of all the reources that it can't yet see, but it does. Rather than assuming, it makes more sense to look back at your games (And try to be objective about it, I know I have trouble being objective looking at how the AI works), and see if the AI have been making deals with nations that have betrayed each other that it shouldn't be able to make due to a shattered repuation. From that, I can say very firmly that there is no concept of reputation between AI nations. It kind of makes sense when you think about it- each AI nation knows that it will break any deal for hardly anything, and must therefore know that all the other AI nations, programmed in exactly the same way, also have no concept of sticking to deals, so they ignore reputation entirely.

 

[Aggie]

...It kind of makes sense when you think about it- each AI nation knows that it will break any deal for hardly anything, and must therefore know that all the other AI nations, programmed in exactly the same way, also have no concept of sticking to deals, so they ignore reputation entirely.

It makes no sense to me at all. The AI can't think and knows NOTHING (it is by no means an artificial intelligence). It is PROGRAMMED to act a certain way in certain situations. It will refuse to make deals with a human deal breaker, so I expect the same reaction vs untrustworthy AI opponents... You are suggesting that Firaxis programmed a different behaviour for AI vs AI relations. And don't think that they did...

 

[Mr. Do]

Okay, that was a simplification, I was more thinking along the lines of it would have been prorgrammed to act in such a manner as described. Yes, it will refuse to make deals with a human deal breaker, and you might expect the same reaction towards untrustworthy AI opponenents, and that it would be against normal reasoning for it to treat other AI nations differently- but play the game and you'll see that it is quite different from your expectations. All AI players will sign ROP's with each other, despite repeatedly breaking them (or the equivalent of breaking them). They will sign trade embargoes, make a deal with the human player and breaking the embargo, then inevitably make the same embargo with the same AI after some time, sometimes straight away. And so on. The AI simply could not make these deals so often if it treated other AI players in the same way as humans.

Observations beat expectations any day of the week. You must have noticed this if you've played the game significantly.

 

[Aggie]

I have played a lot of games, but I can't tell you what the exact deals between the AI are. I know a few ways to make ROP's with the AI despite a ruined rep. The AI could use these loopholes as well, to name an example (only they would use certain ways without knowing it to be loopholes...). I'm absolutely not convinced that the AI treats another AI better than a human player.

 

[dgfred]

I have played a lot of games, but I can't tell you what the exact deals between the AI are. I know a few ways to make ROP's with the AI despite a ruined rep. The AI could use these loopholes as well, to name an example (only they would use certain ways without knowing it to be loopholes...). I'm absolutely not convinced that the AI treats another AI better than a human player.

In my current emperor game the Indians keep asking for one on my luxuries
for 28gpt-- they only have 18 at the moment . It just 'feels' like they
are ONLY doing this because in about 1 turn they will not be able to pay and
attack my Celtic stronghold . I am tempted to accept and reload
if this does happen just to test . My question is do you think this is
a major cause of wars between AIs? I mean is 'sounds' like a great deal if
you don't think about it .

 

[Despair888]

The AI does think about short term gains.

Just the other night, I was Germany and Carthage was my
neighbor on the Continent. (We took out everyone else).
Im over building up my navy to start an attack. Planning that
they might help me. Im keeping Carthage happy, infact they were
Gracious towards me, first time Ive had that happen, and what do
they do, attack me next turn while I almost have my navy complete.

They think about short term things rather than long alliances
that lead to domination. I think this should be fixed.

 

[Aggie]

My question is do you think this is
a major cause of wars between AIs? I mean is 'sounds' like a great deal if
you don't think about it .

I am sure that this is a reason for wars between AI's. Whenever you play a map with a lot of room to expand a lot of luxuries to pick (huge world map with only 8 civs for example) you will notice that there are far less wars. The AI wants luxuries and resources and if they can't get them peacefully they have alternatives. Note that I have played games where I didn't connect any resources (and didn't produce a single military unit). Inspired by Charis and Betazed. I have seen a lot less wars in these games, because the AI didn't have a reason to attack me and take my coal, etc....

It is a common understanding in the SG section that you only connect a 2nd resource (of the same type) when you are able to fight off the AI. I never would connect two sources of iron early in a Sid game...