The America Thread

[Patine]

Besides we already have a Spec Ops unit that can engage openly with other units

Which they shouldn't frankly. One does not usually put a ninja unit onto an open battlefield in games and scenarios about the Sengoku Jedai period, but they're usually reserved for other, specialzied tasks. That's how it should also be with Spec Ops. units in future iterations of Civ.

 

[Evie]

I rather agree, Special Ops and SEAL teams are really more spies than combat units.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Special Forces of all kinds have traditionally been more Force Multipliers than actual Main Force units.
So, as examples:
1. They all have Target Acquisition capabilities, so, in game terms, extend the line of sight ideally without letting the opponent know that he's been sighted.
2. Many have assassination functions similar to the current Spy Missions in Civ VI, but extended to 'hard' targets that they can engage by targeting them for heavy weapons (cruise missiles, drone-launched weapons, etc) or attacking with heavily-armed teams instead of individual pistol-armed spies. And their targets extend to not just Governors, but also Great Generals and politicians of all types (however the game wants to depict those)
3. Many also have 'Force Divider' instead of Force Multiplier functions: they can perform sabotage, especially of military targets like HQ, airfields, supply routes, etc. - places more heavily protected than the spy's 'civilian' targets. The original Soviet Spetsnaz were, in fact, almost entirely sabotage and demolition groups directed behind the enemy lines.
4. Most also have Deception functions - directing the enemy's attention away from critical points of the battlefield, distracting his command and intelligence apparatus.

In game terms, since they are almost entirely incapable of engaging main force units on the battlefield, Special Forces might better be modeled similar to Spies in Civ VI now: instead of units on the map, they'd be deployable to a point on the map (NOT necessarily a city) and either succeed or fail in their mission there and either survive to return for another mission or be destroyed.
Missions could include revealing all enemy units and installations in a given area (long range reconnaissance), destroying or damaging a military installation in an area (airfield, fort, shipyard), killing an enemy Great Person (primarily Great Generals, Great Admirals, but also potentially Great Engineers or Great Scientists) or even reducing the combat or movement factor of enemy units in an area (sabotage, demolition of routes) - but only temporarily: if you want to do permanent damage, use the Special Forces to reveal an enemy unit for the attentions of cruise missiles or Heavy Bombers.

 

[reddishrecue]

Special Forces of all kinds have traditionally been more Force Multipliers than actual Main Force units.
So, as examples:
1. They all have Target Acquisition capabilities, so, in game terms, extend the line of sight ideally without letting the opponent know that he's been sighted.
2. Many have assassination functions similar to the current Spy Missions in Civ VI, but extended to 'hard' targets that they can engage by targeting them for heavy weapons (cruise missiles, drone-launched weapons, etc) or attacking with heavily-armed teams instead of individual pistol-armed spies. And their targets extend to not just Governors, but also Great Generals and politicians of all types (however the game wants to depict those)
3. Many also have 'Force Divider' instead of Force Multiplier functions: they can perform sabotage, especially of military targets like HQ, airfields, supply routes, etc. - places more heavily protected than the spy's 'civilian' targets. The original Soviet Spetsnaz were, in fact, almost entirely sabotage and demolition groups directed behind the enemy lines.
4. Most also have Deception functions - directing the enemy's attention away from critical points of the battlefield, distracting his command and intelligence apparatus.

In game terms, since they are almost entirely incapable of engaging main force units on the battlefield, Special Forces might better be modeled similar to Spies in Civ VI now: instead of units on the map, they'd be deployable to a point on the map (NOT necessarily a city) and either succeed or fail in their mission there and either survive to return for another mission or be destroyed.
Missions could include revealing all enemy units and installations in a given area (long range reconnaissance), destroying or damaging a military installation in an area (airfield, fort, shipyard), killing an enemy Great Person (primarily Great Generals, Great Admirals, but also potentially Great Engineers or Great Scientists) or even reducing the combat or movement factor of enemy units in an area (sabotage, demolition of routes) - but only temporarily: if you want to do permanent damage, use the Special Forces to reveal an enemy unit for the attentions of cruise missiles or Heavy Bombers.

Ive seen special forced in civ rev 2 on the android and they didn't really make the cut like they sounded imho. Not to mention the great propaganda the US used to have for special forces.
I see your post and special forces seem like spies and more sense. Also at what cost should SFs be causing all these actions? EP like they used to in civ 4? Or turns and odds that they implemented in civs 5 and 6? What if they added both EP and a wider variety of intelligence options for civ 7?

 

[civilizationfanatic2000]

America should be in the game, but how: Remember when I said 'everyone can make America' a long while ago? Following from 'most civilizations should start out as rural illiterate peoples that develop depending on where they are and what historical events happen to them', America and other colonial nations should be 'someone settles a continent and then mismanages that colony causing it to separate from the mainland.' Of course, in a more vanilla civ mindset, just add it in.

Who leads: Franklin D. Roosevelt. Can build nukes faster

How is it designed: Science heavy America. Spec ops unique unit.

 

[Evie]

As written, that would make America essentially unplayable, since it would only ever appear during the game against the will of the player.

Even in your system where civilizations form over the course of the game, this would be a problem - having a civilization that only ever appear as NPC simply is not good design. So there would need to be an alternate system for a player to form America, that doesn't require suboptimal play (you should never have to deliberately weaken yourself or harm your play in order to be able to form a civilization). So "mismanagement of colonies", or even requiring a civil war, are not good conditions here.

I'm thinking the condition for forming America in your game mode/mod should be something along the lines of "Move your capital to a continent other than the one you started on, and own more tiles on that continent than on your starting one."

Of course, in the base game, America should be playable from game start as usual.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

America should be in the game, but how: Remember when I said 'everyone can make America' a long while ago? Following from 'most civilizations should start out as rural illiterate peoples that develop depending on where they are and what historical events happen to them', America and other colonial nations should be 'someone settles a continent and then mismanages that colony causing it to separate from the mainland.' Of course, in a more vanilla civ mindset, just add it in.

"Colonial" nations should form out of the pool of playable civilizations that did not appear at the start of the game. There's no reason to limit it to just America and Brazil etc. In a game of "what if" why couldn't China or Egypt spawn as a colonial nation from another civ?

 

[civilizationfanatic2000]

As written, that would make America essentially unplayable, since it would only ever appear during the game against the will of the player.

Even in your system where civilizations form over the course of the game, this would be a problem - having a civilization that only ever appear as NPC simply is not good design. So there would need to be an alternate system for a player to form America, that doesn't require suboptimal play (you should never have to deliberately weaken yourself or harm your play in order to be able to form a civilization). So "mismanagement of colonies", or even requiring a civil war, are not good conditions here.

I'm thinking the condition for forming America in your game mode/mod should be something along the lines of "Move your capital to a continent other than the one you started on, and own more tiles on that continent than on your starting one."

Of course, in the base game, America should be playable from game start as usual.

good compromise.

 

[Patine]

good compromise.

I don't know about that. Frankly, having special rules for civ's who historically appeared later means such rules must be applied to ALL those civ's who weren't there in Early Antiquity, and that could snowball into a real mess, quickly.

 

[Evie]

That is precisely what MeganovaStella's proposed game mode is about.

As I very clearly said, for the base game America should remain a starting option.

 

[Xandinho]

I don't know about that. Frankly, having special rules for civ's who historically appeared later means such rules must be applied to ALL those civ's who weren't there in Early Antiquity, and that could snowball into a real mess, quickly.

Civilization 4 didn't have something like that? In which you could declare independence of a conquered territory? In the end, a new leader who was not present in the game appeared ruling that territory. It wasn't a mess, as it didn't happen very often over the course of the match.

 

[Patine]

Civilization 4 didn't have something like that? In which you could declare independence of a conquered territory? In the end, a new leader who was not present in the game appeared ruling that territory. It wasn't a mess, as it didn't happen very often over the course of the match.

Civ4 is an iteration I admit I have never played (save a time limited demo with your civ and map chosen for you shortly before it's release).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Civilization 4 didn't have something like that? In which you could declare independence of a conquered territory? In the end, a new leader who was not present in the game appeared ruling that territory. It wasn't a mess, as it didn't happen very often over the course of the match.

That is similar to what I was essentially proposing, though it would be AI leaders trying to declare independence from you or other original civs.

 

[Sostratus]

I remember when Civ6 was young, thinking about this.

My preferred take on America for a civ game would be one that focuses on the industrial expansion of the US c 1875-1925, perhaps under McKinley (who, at the time of his assassination, was thought would rank as a great president until Teddy overshadowed him) but then the devs basically made this civ. It’s called Workshop of the World Britain. (If they scrapped the Sea Dog and used the Dreadnought it would be the perfect civ.)

Now, I think there are some other ways to do it, but I do think the US should be an economic civ primarily. That can come in more than one form: the obvious one is to be a yield monster a la WotW, or Germany, or Aussies, and so forth. The other way is to look at expansion and construction.

Settling cities, building districts, and building improvements are all very important parts of the economic game.

If you gave me the designer’s pen, I’d probably use the concept of homesteading and manifest destiny to create a unique unit that’s a… Settler. We’ve never really had this, but a unique settler that could get cities up and running faster somehow would be awesome. (We can call it the Pioneer.) That could be by starting with extra pop, cheaper, not costing pop to build from the home city, extra tiles, generating a free improvement on settle, loyalty, etc. Something fun like that.

Some kind of Industry related ability plus speedy expansion would be my preferred implementation.

It would also be cool to get railroads in there somehow. (Although railroads are a little weak in VI compared to V.)

Manifest destiny: you can’t stop it and neither can I!

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I remember when Civ6 was young, thinking about this.

My preferred take on America for a civ game would be one that focuses on the industrial expansion of the US c 1875-1925, perhaps under McKinley (who, at the time of his assassination, was thought would rank as a great president until Teddy overshadowed him) but then the devs basically made this civ. It’s called Workshop of the World Britain. (If they scrapped the Sea Dog and used the Dreadnought it would be the perfect civ.)

Now, I think there are some other ways to do it, but I do think the US should be an economic civ primarily. That can come in more than one form: the obvious one is to be a yield monster a la WotW, or Germany, or Aussies, and so forth. The other way is to look at expansion and construction.

Settling cities, building districts, and building improvements are all very important parts of the economic game.

If you gave me the designer’s pen, I’d probably use the concept of homesteading and manifest destiny to create a unique unit that’s a… Settler. We’ve never really had this, but a unique settler that could get cities up and running faster somehow would be awesome. (We can call it the Pioneer.) That could be by starting with extra pop, cheaper, not costing pop to build from the home city, extra tiles, generating a free improvement on settle, loyalty, etc. Something fun like that.

Some kind of Industry related ability plus speedy expansion would be my preferred implementation.

It would also be cool to get railroads in there somehow. (Although railroads are a little weak in VI compared to V.)

Manifest destiny: you can’t stop it and neither can I!

Just a couple of notes on an interesting 'take' on America:

The American Expansion was independent of railroads - explosive expansion of population out of New England and across the Allegheny Mountains was already taking place well before the Revolution, and only the 'distraction' of the Civil War slowed it down before the continent was covered by the 1890s. I think the preferred unit, then, should be, as stated, a Unique Settler: call it a Homesteader after the Homestead Act that primed the post-Civil War expansion westward, or the Pioneer that is more expressive of the early 17th - 18th century flood westwards over the mountains into the Ohio and Mississippi country.

I would shamelessly borrow from Humankind, which has a mid/late- game Settler-type unit that starts a city with extra population AND extra Buildings already built. That would have to be modified from the original, because as I remember, it was 'way OP. But, to show the variety of 'start-up' cities ranging from markets for agricultural goods to mining to logging to trading (inland ports like Chicago and Saint Louis spring to mind:no particular resources nearby, but traffic funneled through them from far up-river), I suggest that upon founding a 'Pioneer City', you automatically get extra Population (2 - 3?) AND get to choose which starting structure(s) it automatically comes with: Harbor, Mine, Market, Farm, Plantation, etc.

That should result in the dramatic expansion of American cities and borders that made it a very disturbing neighbor throughout the years of expansion, whether you were an appendage of a greater Empire, like Canada or Mexico, or a native group that could only momentarily slow down the flood. (Side Note: American relations with 'City States', Barbarians and other Less-Than-Civ groups should be almost uniformly BAD, reflecting the complete inability of Americans to recognize any existing claims to territory other than their own)

A less important in most games but flavorful American Unique might also be the ability to buy territory as contiguous tiles bordering American territory from other Civs: think Alaska and the Russian claims on the west coast of North America, or the purchase of land from Mexico in addition to land seized from hat state in the Mexican War. IF such a mechanic doesn't become standard in Civ VII, this would be a good place to sneak it in.

 

[reddishrecue]

America does start from scratch like it does in civ 5 because the scout has that extra sight. I think it would be interesting to see a modernization period in such civilizations such as Brazil or America because it would make things interesting for its culture, I guess? It's kind of complicated to me maybe I should just keep it the way it is, I mean America or Brazil.
It would be interesting to have a sort of metamorphosis in civilizations like it used to happen in Age of Empires 3.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

I remember when Civ6 was young, thinking about this.

My preferred take on America for a civ game would be one that focuses on the industrial expansion of the US c 1875-1925, perhaps under McKinley (who, at the time of his assassination, was thought would rank as a great president until Teddy overshadowed him) but then the devs basically made this civ. It’s called Workshop of the World Britain. (If they scrapped the Sea Dog and used the Dreadnought it would be the perfect civ.)

Now, I think there are some other ways to do it, but I do think the US should be an economic civ primarily. That can come in more than one form: the obvious one is to be a yield monster a la WotW, or Germany, or Aussies, and so forth. The other way is to look at expansion and construction.

Settling cities, building districts, and building improvements are all very important parts of the economic game.

If you gave me the designer’s pen, I’d probably use the concept of homesteading and manifest destiny to create a unique unit that’s a… Settler. We’ve never really had this, but a unique settler that could get cities up and running faster somehow would be awesome. (We can call it the Pioneer.) That could be by starting with extra pop, cheaper, not costing pop to build from the home city, extra tiles, generating a free improvement on settle, loyalty, etc. Something fun like that.

Some kind of Industry related ability plus speedy expansion would be my preferred implementation.

It would also be cool to get railroads in there somehow. (Although railroads are a little weak in VI compared to V.)

Manifest destiny: you can’t stop it and neither can I!

No way was McKinley a good president. He helped the ROBBER BARONS!

 

[Caesar of Bread]

America should be in the game, but how: Remember when I said 'everyone can make America' a long while ago? Following from 'most civilizations should start out as rural illiterate peoples that develop depending on where they are and what historical events happen to them', America and other colonial nations should be 'someone settles a continent and then mismanages that colony causing it to separate from the mainland.' Of course, in a more vanilla civ mindset, just add it in.

Who leads: Franklin D. Roosevelt. Can build nukes faster

How is it designed: Science heavy America. Spec ops unique unit.

Having an FDR without the New Deal is like having hot dogs without buns. It just doesn't work.


Also, if you don't know what a robber baron is - robber barons were greedy monopolists who led America during the late 1800s (the Gilded Age - seems good on the outside, real horsehockey on the inside!)

 

[Patine]

No way was McKinley a good president. He helped the ROBBER BARONS!

And stole the Kingdom of Hawai'i through skullduggery that broke international law, treaties with the Hawai'ian Monarchy, and even, arguably the U.S. Constitution - especially with his recognizing of the Thief-Baron, Sanford Dole's regime, as legitimate, when the U.S.-Hawai'ian Treaty made Dole an enemy of the U.S. Government the minute he made his coup.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

And stole the Kingdom of Hawai'i through skullduggery that broke international law, treaties with the Hawai'ian Monarchy, and even, arguably the U.S. Constitution - especially with his recognizing of the Thief-Baron, Sanford Dole's regime, as legitimate, when the U.S.-Hawai'ian Treaty made Dole an enemy of the U.S. Government the minute he made his coup.

I forgot that. McKinley and Dole's invasion and takeover of Hawaii was terrible.