The Americans are not a proper civ

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Julien

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Considering that the United States is a relatively new country (I mean, not just the Independance, but the whole present area as one nation with a common culture), it doesn't have a place in a game like Civilisation. A civilisation is suppose to be a more or less homogenous group (ethicity, culture, language, history...) that has lived and grown in a defined area and made it its homeland.@But the USA is just a mix of numerous European, African, Asian and, even if they tend to be forgotten in today's society, "native" Americans ! On the ethnical point of view, it is one of the least homogenous country in the world. Look at China, India or Russia. These are huge countries, but at least they have something in common in their origins, what make of them a civ.
Even if Europe is a little more mixed up, it makes more than 1 and half millenium that the Romans have withdrawn from France or Britain and more than a thousand years than Germanic tribes or Vikings have mixed with Latin and Celtic people. You can't tell you is from Viking descend in Spain or France nowadays. Everybody is a little bit. That's also why we don't speak of Gauls, Iberians, Romans, etc but of new Civs - the French, Spanish, Italian... The English are the late comers in Europe and it took about 500 years before the Anglo-saxons, Celts, Vikings and Normands form a more homogenous English civilisation (though, difference in origins can still be seen).

Americans are not a Civ. It's just because most of the people who buy the game are Americans that it is in the Game since Civ1. Please, don't be fooled. Sorry to say that to all the Americans who'll read me, but as powerful and developped as the USA can be, it will only be an extension of the mainly British civ, as it was an almost 100% British country at the time of independance and it has remained the very first official language. Language and culture are so tightly bound to each others that you can almost consider it as one same thing. I guess if French had become the official language of the US, the mentality of the people would be radically different now. It would be a second France, as it is a second England now. Think about Latin America ; why are Spanish speaking countries so apparented with Spain, even though a much smaller proportion is from European descent (5% in Cuba, 20% in Colombia, but 90% in Argentina) than in the US. The only thing give Cuba, Mexico, Colombia, Peru or Argentina the feeling of being in the same group is the language/culture factor, not the ethnicity.

The United States are a cosmolpolitan nation, but so become the UK (and with people of the same diversity). This allow the bridge between both countries not to be broken. But I will not say that the US is a mere replica of the UK as it is not true. The land is different and both are sovereign nations with their own laws. That's what will differentiate them the most in the future, and who knows, America could well create a real Civilisation quicker than one expects. We won't be there to see it anyway.:p

Just make me a favour, don't play the Americans if you start a game in 4000BC. Please, please...:cry:
 
Guees you are right, but the Ameticans will still be fun to play.
Im looking forward to use that fighterplane that they have.
Also, if you shouldn't play Americans, why then play English, french or german since all of these are almost as mixed up with each other as the Americans:)
 
I agree with the base of what you are saying. Actually many of the "civs" wouldn't really classify as civilisations in the sense of which you speak. The Zulu's for example were a growth of the Bantu culture.

More accurately the American's would be an extension of the "Western European" civ that might begin with "The culture that starts in the Balkins".


But, this is a game afterall and there might as well be some kind of recognizable name for the different civs.

One of the weak areas of the Civ series is that your particular civ does not evolve culturally into another type of civ. For example you might start as highly religious but eventually change to another strength through contact with other civs.
I always felt it would be more realistic in the game if you changed more then just your government type through time.
Using the American's as an example. What we really have is a continuation of a thread that began with Rome (who were influenced by the Greeks and Eutruscans who were influenced by etc etc etc.)
Not to mention I always thought it ludicrous that Abraham Lincoln popped up in 3000 BC.

However hopefully with the editing capabilities and some of the new features, these observations will be less obtrusive then before.

FC
 
As far as I'm concerned, there is NO civ that doesn't deserve to be in Civ3. What's this, anyway? We couldn't diss the Iroquois and Zulus hard enough, so let's start on the Americans?? I think we should concentrate on the things that make Civ good, NOT whom we should exclude. Yes, the Americans may not be a civ by your standards, but, I believe thay have every right to be represented in Civ, just as I feel that the Turks, Spanish, Celts, and Mongols have every right to be there, but aren't. Just as the Iroquois, Zulus, and Aztecs have every right to be there, but many feel that they shouldn't. Personally, I think this thread is really devisive(sp), and IMHO, I don't it's right for you to make the appeal that people not play the Americans. Yes, I notice that there has been some dissing of the French on these boards, and I don't think that's right, either, but who am I, but a dumb American peacemonger whose views don't matter, anyway.
 
This is not a good argument. Just because America formed recently (relatively) does not make it more valid than the English say.

English - do you mean Celts, Saxons, Picts, Norsemen/vikings, Jutes, Angles or even the Romans ? Unless you really go back to ethnics the nations, do not make historical sense.

This is just a name to hang your civilization on and to help you identify with them, enjoy it.
 
This is such a tired topic.

The development of a civilization has more to do with the scientific, political, social, artistic and cultural complexities than with longetivity and ethnicity.

Think about it. Would you consider the Zulus more "civilized" than Americans in the traditional sense? Probably not.

Also, I'm not making a claim that America is the crowning achievement of mankind, just that it is definately a civ. and has the right to be in the game.
 
Treadwin sumed it up. You could say the same thing about many civs. I think its correct to include the 'tribes' players would most want to be.

Even though I'm American, I like the Germans. Germany is also a relatively new country, like America.

If its 4000 BC, most civs in the list wouldn't exist yet, anyway. But for game purposes, and I understand the editor allows to change them, the most popular tribes should be standard.

I'll miss the viking triremes attacking my transports full of marines though...;)
 
English - do you mean Celts, Saxons, Picts, Norsemen/vikings, Jutes, Angles or even the Romans ? Unless you really go back to ethnics the nations, do not make historical sense.

Look at what I wrote just before. It took a while before all Celts-Picts, Vikings-Normands, Anglo-Saxons-Jutes all intermarried and create a new kind of culture, language and "ethny". But English really is a language that has wonderfully joined Germanic languages (Vikings or Anglo-Saxons, which beared some similarities) with old French and Latin. A few words were inherited from Celtic language(s), but they are very few. Anyway, English is one distintive language now. Is American one ? It did incorporate some new French words such as "coridor" that are only American English. Native American words (tomahawk, totem...), were also incorporated, but in British English (or other European languages) as well. Only the new "Americanism" are a start towards a differenciation - as long as they are not taken up by British people through Hollywood movies or else.
 
That's the reason that I say that every tribe, nation, etc., deserves to be in Civ. This " My country (or civ, or tribe) is better than yours" attitude is old, tired, and devisive. EVERYONE is equal, in terms of their humanity and worth. The reason that the world is in the sorry shape that it's in today is because people refuse to see the humanity in those they feel superior to.
 
The nice thing about Civ3 is that you can easily modify your version to replace any Civilization you feel is inappropriate with one that is more suitable to you. However, don't tell me how to play my game!

If you'd rather have the Assyrians, go ahead and edit the Americans out.
 
So, A civ should be based on language. Then Québec should be a civ because it has it's own culture AND no other french speaking country unsertands our language :D
 
Originally posted by Joespaniel

Even though I'm American, I like the Germans. Germany is also a relatively new country, like America.


Germany is definetly not a new country. OK, It's been unified in 1870 and the present constitution date from 1948 or something, but German people have always lived in present day Germany and spoken an evolution of the same German since thousands of years. We can say that German ethny and language are older than most of the other ones, as it already existed before Roman was even founded. There has been changes and many dialects and tribes inside Germany, but still. It IS an old civilisation. Older than the French or English for sure.


To answer Dreadhead7, I never said that America was less good or developped or anything than any other Civ. It is blatant that it isn't. I care about history, not about things are now. Civ is a history game.

Delsully, why are you telling me about the Zulus ?
 
I guess I just don't understand (well, I'm an idiot). I thought that the civilizations included in the CIV serie were Civs that influenced their era. The Romans did in their time, the Chinese did, the Russians did, and the Americans did (as well as many others). It's not about how old a civ is or its language, I think.
 
What is a civilization?

While I agree from a historical perspective it is a little silly for the USA to start in 4000 BC, it is no less silly for the Babylonians to launch a spaceship in 2000 AD. For game mechanics, the more civs the merrier. It looks hopeful that you fanatics out there will design other interesting civs that didn't make the cut - Phoenicians, Arabs, Vikings... for me to play.

I would argue that part of what made (and makes) the US great is the removal of ethnicity as a defining characteristic of a culture. Yes, there is still racism & sexism, but in general our ancestors had to sacrifice to come here and make a better life - talk about self-selecting an industrious populace.

We remember the Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek and Roman civs thousands of years after their heyday. I would submit that thousands of years from now the USA will be the defining civ of our era. (We need a US flag smilie!)
 
I would submit that thousands of years from now the USA will be the defining civ of our era.

I do hope that there will be no countries in 1000, just a planet with people... THEN we'll be able to stop worrying about frontiers and nationalism.
 
Originally posted by Julien
I care about history, not about things are now. Civ is a history game.

I think Civ is better characterized as a strategy game with some historic elements. It is an abstaction in the extreme. Arguing for or against this or that Civ in terms of the game Civilization is pointless.
 
Different language and ethnicity doesnt distinguish a civilization.


1 a : a relatively high level of cultural and technological development; specifically : the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained

b : the culture characteristic of a particular time or place

You just cannot say without being a complete ignoramous, that just because Americans originated from England that we're only an offshoot of them. We have our own customs, dialects (we do speak differently in certain parts of the country. Dialects that wouldnt' have developed had we not broken off from England and formed our own CIVILIZATION), traditions, governmental system, code of laws, AND history.

Even if you think two hundred years isnt a sufficient period to be recognised, although we've affected almost every other nation in the world today. And our legacy on history in years to come will last, that much i can assure you of. We're a global power, and the affect we have on the world will be substantial. I think that alone justifies our right to be recognised in this game.

As for starting at 4000 AD, thats reason enough to exclude more than just the americans from this game. Why single us out? do you have a problem with americans or something? ALthough i'm angry that you seem to think that ethnicityand language are all that can distinguish a civilization, I agree that its silly for them to start that early. It would be cool if there was a scripted event where civs could emerge around the time when they did in real life, with all of the technologies of the country they break off from.
 
Julien -
The US may have British roots, but we really are a different culture and people. To suggest otherwise is, to me anyway, bordering on insulting.

I will gladly grant you that it seems odd to have America and Abe around in 4000 b.c. But as Treadwin mentioned, it's not something one should get uptight about.

It really comes down to semantics and what /you/ consider to be a civilization. Indigenous peoples, common language, long history, homogenous ethnicity: by that definition, sure, the US isn't a civ. But if you refine it to include great nations that have had lasting impact on the world... considering the massive worldwide impact the US has had in its short existence (culturally, economically, politically, etc) it'd be pretty odd /not/ to have them in the mix.

- Stravaig
 
Oh God help us, here goes one more person with this tired old topic.

Civs are named as such for one reason: to provide a range of culturally distinctive civs varied enough that most people around the world can identify with one should they choose to pick up the game.

If you really think the choice by Firaxians to include a given civ is a result of a much historical and political analysis ...... you're fooling yourself.
 
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