The Americans are not a proper civ

[Little Sicily]

I think the byline of the original Civ says it best. "Build an empire to stand the test of time." I think it's safe to say that America has done this (the test of time part, at least) Even if America vanishes tomorrow, archaeologists and scholars a thousand years ago will still be talking about it. I won't go into the whole "This civ is more deserving of the title than that civ" debate, I'm just as tired of it as the rest of you, but for the purposes of this game, the Americans qualify to be in.

Oh, and Julien, as far as language goes, were you aware that a change of 1 voite would have made German the official language of America?

 

[amadeus]

America has been the biggest influence on the world for 100 years.

Not to be disrespectful, but I sincerly doubt the Iroquois have had a tenth of a hundred of influence on the world compared to the United States.

If anything, all of the tribal nations could be considered not "proper" civs.

 

[Magnus]

Agreed.

The USA is the #1 civilization in the world right now and has been for the last 50 years - you can't ignore that. Dead civilizations are in the game, so why no include young, vibrant ones as well?

 

[RastaMon]

Originally posted by Little Sicily

Oh, and Julien, as far as language goes, were you aware that a change of 1 voite would have made German the official language of America?

Bah, this is a crusty old urban myth.

The upshot is, the vote which failed by one was whether to adjourn a discussion of whether to include the US Code in German in addition to English.

RastaMon

 

[TownsendVol]

wasted my time reading this dibble.

Well I might be biased being an American and all but I feel we have a place in the game. I dont think it would be wise to debate a mind such as yours so I will leave it at that.

 

[Little Sicily]

Originally posted by RastaMon


Bah, this is a crusty old urban myth.

The upshot is, the vote which failed by one was whether to adjourn a discussion of whether to include the US Code in German in addition to English.

RastaMon

Well, having followed that link, and further to the essay it's linked to, I count myself duly reproached on the subject and will never again cite that example as fact.

As you hint at though, the real story does lend credence to the arguement that language has been an issue in America for as long as it's been around.

 

[BusterBunny]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
America has been the biggest influence on the world for 100 years.

Not to be disrespectful, but I sincerly doubt the Iroquois have had a tenth of a hundred of influence on the world compared to the United States.

If anything, all of the tribal nations could be considered not "proper" civs.

If a tribal nation had an important influence in its time, then it should be there. And it depends on what you define on culture. America is not known for its interesting gastronomy, nor for it's influence in classical litterature, or in Renaissance books, or classical music, or baroque painting... because the US wasn't there at the time... the same thing applies to the Babylonians. They are not here now... does it mean they are not proper civs.

And, just to argue without any intent of flaming, the US didn't have the biggest influence in the world in 1900. UK had. The US took that place between in WWII.

 

[CrazyScientist]

The U.S, is the most powerful and influencial civilisation in the world right now. Economically, militarily, and otherwise. Its level of influence is, I would say, unprecedented throughout history. The romans or english, or chinese might have had it if the means of communication and transportation that exist today had existed in their heydays, but they didn't. This is something you cannot ignore. To suggest that the U.S. doesn't belong in a game of world history is ludicrous.
If nothing else, look at the technologies at the mid to late game. Many of them were developed in america.
Look at the wonders in civ 2. The americans have 5 that I can think of (hoover, manhatten, appolo, statue, SETI). As many or more than any other single civ, except maybe english, or italian.
All patriotism aside I think Firaxis has done an excellent job in selecting the 16 civs that are going to be in this game. They selected civs which were influential at different periods in history, as well as a couple that were never really important historically, but might have been.
Civ is a game of counterfactual history. About "what-ifs" and "might-have-beens". It is about historical patterns and themes, not historical facts. To say that any particular civ doesn;t belong in it, is IMHO rediculous

 

[Chinese American]

Originally posted by Julien
Considering that the United States is a relatively new country (I mean, not just the Independance, but the whole present area as one nation with a common culture), it doesn't have a place in a game like Civilisation. A civilisation is suppose to be a more or less homogenous group (ethicity, culture, language, history...) that has lived and grown in a defined area and made it its homeland.@But the USA is just a mix of numerous European, African, Asian and, even if they tend to be forgotten in today's society, "native" Americans ! On the ethnical point of view, it is one of the least homogenous country in the world. Look at China, India or Russia. These are huge countries, but at least they have something in common in their origins, what make of them a civ.

Is that the definition of 'civiliization' nowadays? 'Homogenous group?' Let's see, so the Roman Empire cannot be called a 'civilization', since it was the result of a military conquest of foreign lands. So why did they include them in the game? Also, if you look very closely into China, you will see that it is still a very heterogenous 'civilization'. IE, Tibet could even be considered a separate nation, but China doesn't recognize that. North and South, East and West China are very different. Mandarin may be the 'national language' but in some places, esp. in the west, they don't have formal education, so they can't speak the 'national language', only their local language.

Originally posted by Julien
Americans are not a Civ. It's just because most of the people who buy the game are Americans that it is in the Game since Civ1. Please, don't be fooled. Sorry to say that to all the Americans who'll read me, but as powerful and developped as the USA can be, it will only be an extension of the mainly British civ, as it was an almost 100% British country at the time of independance and it has remained the very first official language. Language and culture are so tightly bound to each others that you can almost consider it as one same thing. I guess if French had become the official language of the US, the mentality of the people would be radically different now. It would be a second France, as it is a second England now. Think about Latin America ; why are Spanish speaking countries so apparented with Spain, even though a much smaller proportion is from European descent (5% in Cuba, 20% in Colombia, but 90% in Argentina) than in the US. The only thing give Cuba, Mexico, Colombia, Peru or Argentina the feeling of being in the same group is the language/culture factor, not the ethnicity.

Then why do the English and French count as 'civs'? They're basically off-shoots of Viking, Roman, and Celtic cultures. Shouldn't those be the ones we play, then? They don't call them 'Romantic languages' for nothing.

Yes, the America began as English colonies. You'd think after a revolution and 200 years of independence, nobody would doubt that America is not an British commonwealth. I doubt that being a 'Second France' would be any different. Do you consider Canada a 'Second France' or 'Second England'? Would being French stop the Louisiana purchase? Would the Manifest Destiny and the American Dream philosophies not show up, just because they were French? Maybe. But I think France was declining during that period (with Napoleonic Wars and all and needed the money) , which enabled USA to double or more in size, which means people were needed to settle those lands. Of course by this time, US was a budding nation on a different continent, which lead to the generation of a different set of ethics, values, culture, philosophies, laws, etc.

Interesting, you mentioned "A civilisation is suppose to be a more or less homogenous group (ethicity, culture, language, history...) that has lived and grown in a defined area and made it its homeland." Although I disagree with the 'homogenous' part, the latter part seems to agree with most dictionaries. Now, do people who were born in USA call themselves British or American? If USA is the 'second England' wouldn't it be more correct to call themselves British?

Originally posted by Julien
The United States are a cosmolpolitan nation, but so become the UK (and with people of the same diversity). This allow the bridge between both countries not to be broken. But I will not say that the US is a mere replica of the UK as it is not true. The land is different and both are sovereign nations with their own laws. That's what will differentiate them the most in the future, and who knows, America could well create a real Civilisation quicker than one expects. We won't be there to see it anyway.

Just make me a favour, don't play the Americans if you start a game in 4000BC. Please, please... [/B]

You must be out of touch with reality. You're living in a world that is very much dominated by American influence. Where were Jazz, Rock, Blues, Pop, Hip-hop, Rap, etc. musics popularized? Who were the leaders of science for last fifty years or so? Who were the competitors in the Space Race? Where is the United Nations based? Where was the birth of the Internet?

Ethnic diversity is one of America's greatest strengths. Cannot a civilization assimilate foreign peoples? Whether you're white, black, yellow, red, green, purple, if you're born on US soil, you're an American citizen.

 

[Stuie]

Good post! That's the cultural influence at work.......... a lot of other Civs obviously don't like it!

 

[MindRunner]

Originally posted by BusterBunny
I guess I just don't understand (well, I'm an idiot). I thought that the civilizations included in the CIV serie were Civs that influenced their era. The Romans did in their time, the Chinese did, the Russians did, and the Americans did (as well as many others). It's not about how old a civ is or its language, I think.

Yes, I think you've got a point.

And I guess it is this complete incoherence from the people who made Civilization (from the beginning) that annoys me.
The Americans are an important country today, but this game is not about countries, it is about *Civilizations*, remember?

So what's the difference, you might ask?
Well, I'm not an historian, so I can be wrong, but...
I guess that the main difference is that a country has well established borders, as opposed to a Civilization, who just lived in a place without any borders, but had *culture* and *ethnical* descendants to influence the surroundings.

Therefore, my opinion, is that none of the modern countries should be considered a civ, unless they lived there since the beginning of times and were never replaced by other important civs in more than about 20% of its population. This way they should have been able to maintain their culture and ethnical descendants, more or less the same throughout history. (This includes the Germans, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Greeks and many other modern countries, but not all).

In the same way, no colonized country (and this includes the Americans) should be considered a Civ, because they were not the native people around that place. That's why I said, in another post, that the Americans could well be replaced by any Indian tribe, like say, the Sioux.

I know that Americans might not like this point of view, but it's my honest opinion. It's not that they are not an important nation. Off course they are! But this is all about Civilizations, not countries, let's not forget about that.

However, I think that some of this confusion comes from the fact that some "rare" civilizations exist today almost the same way as they did in ancient times. Examples are: Egyptians, Greeks, Chinese and Japanese.

On another hand, I wouldn't include some countries twice, like, for instance, the Scandinavians, because they were known mainly because of the Vikings, who, by that time, did not had the same borders these countries have nowadays.
I wouldn't also consider the Lusitanians and the Iberians, because these civs did not reach anything out of the extraordinary, as far as I know. It was their followers who did that. But those followers were already grouped as two countries: Portugal and Spain. Therefore, the countries, and not the ancient civs, should be included.
And this should be the rule for most cases.

So, for me, Civilizations should be categorized in two classes: Ancient and Modern.
Ancient ones could be:
- Babylonians
- Romans
- Celts
- Aztecs
- Mayans
- Sioux
- Mongols
- Vikings
- Persians
- Moors (they controlled All North of Africa, invaded almost all Iberia and made a great influence!
It's amazing that no one seems to remember of them!)

Ancient and Modern: (They were in the past as they are now, more or less)
- Egyptians
- Chinese
- Japanese
- Greeks
- Indians

Modern: (European and Asian countries mainly, because most of them were not colonized)
- Portuguese
- Spanish
- French
- Germans (Germany and Austria)
- English (All united Kingdom)
- Russians (all former Soviet Union countries)
- Arabians
- Dutch / Benelux (Netherlands and Belgium) (I don't know if the Dutch had the same borders, back in the 16th century, as they have today)


23 Civs are not just 16, I know.
But I guess this selection is more correct and honest, according to human history.

 

[Ilspana]

I'm sick of people who still think we're a colony. Thats all i can say.

 

[Julien]

Originally posted by Ilspana

You just cannot say without being a complete ignoramous, that just because Americans originated from England that we're only an offshoot of them. We have our own customs, dialects (we do speak differently in certain parts of the country. Dialects that wouldnt' have developed had we not broken off from England and formed our own CIVILIZATION), traditions, governmental system, code of laws, AND history.

I think there are much more dialects and regionalism in England only (wihout to even speak about Scotland, Wales or Ireland) that in the whole United States. If you're American, I guess you would even wonder if some Brits speak the same language as you, as you'll not understand half of what they say. And I am not speaking about Cockney ; just try some Midlands or Northen English accents and slangs. For this I find the US much more homogenous, which is neither positive nor negative - just a statement. Australia has probably much more diverse regionalism. You know, in every state they call a sausage with completely different. In England, regionalism can be from a village to the next ! Then, American tradition are mostly European ones, even Christian ones ; I'll not even say it's just British. But nowadays, Japanese people celebrate Xmas and are more fervous on Valentine day than Americans or Europeans. This is greatly due to the American influence and "occupation" of the country after WWII. Japanese language has thousand of words coming from English through... the American, not so much the Brits ! So, America does have a cultural influence nowadays. I never argued about this.

I also find silly that Babylonians or Romans should reach modern times. I put it in another post and I suggested that Civ evolve through history. The Romans would start as the Italics or Etruscans, then change to Roman and finally Italians. Babylonians could be as well Assyrians or other in Ancient times, then turn Arabic later. It seems alright for all the civs (even French would start as the Gauls, the Spanish as the Iberians, the British as the Anglo-saxons, etc.), except ONE, the Americans. How should they start ? As the Iroquois or Sioux ? But they hardly represent a significant part of the American population nowadays and there language and culture has nothing to do with present day United States. What do you suggest that we do ?

P.S. I don't hate Americans, you are our dear litlle brother to us Europeans

 

[TownsendVol]

Main Entry: civ·i·li·za·tion
Pronunciation: "si-v&-l&-'zA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 1772
1 a : a relatively high level of cultural and technological development; specifically : the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained b : the culture characteristic of a particular time or place
2 : the process of becoming civilized
3 a : refinement of thought, manners, or taste b : a situation of urban comfort


There is the definition of Civilization according to Websters. In my opinion we have met all 3 requirements.

Now whether or not you think we are one, WE ARE in the game. I mean its really not a topic for this board I dont think. I think its better suited for the history board.

As far as being anyones baby brother or whatever thats fine. We are all related to each other anyway. The whole stinking world is related.

Now I think that America has contributed enough to the world over the years and left her mark enough to be at least worthy of one of the 16 slots. Besides if we were left out we might just get angry and kick all of your old asses.

 

[Julien]

Originally posted by rmsharpe

Not to be disrespectful, but I sincerly doubt the Iroquois have had a tenth of a hundred of influence on the world compared to the United States.

This is off-topic. The Iroquois are a civ because they are an homogeous bunch (at least they were) distinctive from any others. What I am arguing about is that Americans as a Civ, it's like cheating. Why not to do the Europeans ? There IS a European Union with a Parliament, governement, it's own laws, etc. There IS a European NATIONALITY. On every EU passport, you'll read first European Union, then the region (I mean country). Since 1992, All EU Nationals have the European Nationality. Does it make a civ of them ? No. I love Europe and the idea that it should become one (non-homogenous, please) Nation, but even if you speak of the Europeans (or the Americans) as a nation, with its own laws, tradition, customs, influence in the world, military and economic power, why should it be only one Civ through the HISTORY ? With such simplifications, just do the Asian Civ, the African Civ, the European Civ and the American Civ. The US ARE powerful, but they are become people from every nation and background with the richness of their cultures have joined together and created a new free and independant nation 220 years ago. That's what I rescent as cheating, if you allow civs to fuse together at one time of the game, with all the knowledge and advances of the other ones.

Have a nice day !

 

[joespaniel]

Julien said:
"Germany is definetly not a new country. OK, It's been unified in 1870 and the present constitution date from 1948 or something, but German people have always lived in present day Germany and spoken an evolution of the same German since thousands of years. We can say that German ethny and language are older than most of the other ones, as it already existed before Roman was even founded. There has been changes and many dialects and tribes inside Germany, but still. It IS an old civilisation. Older than the French or English for sure."

Germany is a new country. Germans are an old tribe. Anyway, we're in agreement. I'm from the German/Irish/Polish tribes, but I'm an American! See, its confusing!

As far as the thread topic, its a strategy game, have fun with it. I love being attacked by Roman armor, Sioux battleships and American phalanx!

 

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Julien
Originally posted by Ilspana


Australia has probably much more diverse regionalism. You know, in every state they call a sausage with completely different.

What!? Are you saying that the Australians have more than one word for a banger, err, I mean sausage, so they are somehow more diverse than the US? Try ordering a hoagie and a soda in Boston, a sub and a moxie in Baltimore, and a hero with a pop in Philly. Then go out west and ask for some scrapple while you're at it.

Selah.

 

[Julien]

Originally posted by BusterBunny

And, just to argue without any intent of flaming, the US didn't have the biggest influence in the world in 1900. UK had. The US took that place between in WWII.

That's very right . I guess rmsharpe just rounded up to 100 years to make it feel more big (a century of domination )


Originally posted by DamnCommie

The U.S, is the most powerful and influencial civilisation in the world right now. Economically, militarily, and otherwise. Its level of influence is, I would say, unprecedented throughout history. The romans or english, or chinese might have had it if the means of communication and transportation that exist today had existed in their heydays, but they didn't. This is something you cannot ignore. To suggest that the U.S. doesn't belong in a game of world history is ludicrous.

America is the most influential right now, because you consider European nations as separated. If you take the EU, America is only second economically, militarily (well, in number and power, maybe not in technology ) or anything else you want.

America is a large country now, but it never had the influence Britain, France or even Spain had in colonial times. 100 years ago, he UK had a superficy and population much much bigger than the US now. Same for France 200 years ago or Spain 300 years ago.

Read my previous post to know why I consider the American Civ as cheating by fusing world civs into one big and powerful one.

 

[Terser]

Any nation, tribe, band, or other group that the player can identify with and that increases his or her enjoyment of the game should either be included or created later by that player or other talented individuals.

If the game proves to be even half of what's promised, it will be your game, and you will be completely free to play it as you see fit.

It will likely be a great game. But it ultimately is just that: a game.

 

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Terser
If the game proves to be even half of what's promised, it will be your game, and you will be completely free to play it as you see fit.

And edit the game as you see fit, thus avoiding these devisive and pointless threads (that I seem to jump into all too readily.........).