The Americans are not a proper civ
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Mozenwrath
Warlord
Hello, I am from Britain and although I am not an "America-Lover" I find it ridiculous that some people are arguing that the Americans should be excluded from the game. The different civs are there for people playing the game to identify with, i.e. English and French etc. If you are going to get all picky and say the Americans were'nt around in 4000b.c. and so should be excluded you need to think about what you are saying.
There are very few civs in civ3 that can be traced as being around as far back as 400b.c. for example English, French. Germans, Romans, Russians were all formed as identifiable nations way later on. One could argue, on the premise that a civ is a group of people indigeonous(sp) to a certain area that there should only be one or two civs in the game. After all we all descend from one or two general groups of people don't we?
Thankyou for your time, my closing statement is this...
IT'S ONLY A GAME FOR GOD'S SAKE!
Peace
There are very few civs in civ3 that can be traced as being around as far back as 400b.c. for example English, French. Germans, Romans, Russians were all formed as identifiable nations way later on. One could argue, on the premise that a civ is a group of people indigeonous(sp) to a certain area that there should only be one or two civs in the game. After all we all descend from one or two general groups of people don't we?
Thankyou for your time, my closing statement is this...
IT'S ONLY A GAME FOR GOD'S SAKE!
Peace
It seems that people continue arguing about my original message without to read the following ones. All the confusion came from the name "civilization" used rather than "nation". RastaMon summarized well the debate :
I also said that Belgium, my home country, what certainly not a civilization, not even one culture, as the country is separate by a language border like in Canada.
Would you consider Australia as a Civilization rather than a Nation? If you do, is Monaco or any tiny country a Civilization ? South American don't consider that a single country is a whole civilization itself. Why should America be more a civ, when I said that UK was not (mix of civs) and England was hardly a civ anymore since anybody could be British because of strong immigration.
Here is what I said that can be remembered :
(replying to Chinese American)
You are right ! America has a place in any scenario covering the 20th century, and I will also concede you the 19th the the last few decade of the 18th, even before independance (in a scenario called "Independance" , for instance). In scenarios, any civ is good and even better non-civs are good as well. Look at a WWII scenario with the Allied, Axis and neutral States. Where are the civs ? I don't care at all as anyway I almost always play scenarios.
That's a good point. Thank you for joining the debate anyway. Maybe I just wanted to see how many replies I could get on such sensitive a topic. For sure, It seems right that the name of the game leads to confusion. In Civilization, you can play a game without civilizations at all. You can even play with Dinosaurs, micro-organisms or the Simpsons if you wish. Nobody seemed to noticed that point so far. I think most people are more concerned about knowing if America really IS a Civ or not. As an historian and philosopher, I gave my definition of "civilization". You are welcome not to agree with it. The concept is somewhat vague and everyone can understand it so differently. This has shown well enough how people really CAN'T understand each other. This is why people have fought and will continue to fight each others throughout the ages. I don't hope it will get better one day, as the society and the language become always more complex, and people always more diverse.
I have had near to hatred replies because I dared considering America as not being a Civilization, but a Nation. If people react so promptly to so vague a statement (noboby seemed to understand what it meaned to be a civ, after all) I think we are still far from being civilised, not in the Antique , but post-modern sense of the term. I have intentionally put some highly provoking : statement such as "You Americans are Europeans' litlle brother" or the likes. It would almost be cute to say it if you'd just take it easy and laugh. But Human Beings are proud and don't like to hear such things. To be recognised as a civilization and to have created it independantly, is a pride not to be dismissed of. Even when one doen't know what it all really mean. It just sounded insulting in some way (didn't it ? ). We all want peace, but we all like war. The better we'd have to do is pass our anger on a good game like civ and avoid doing it for real.
Or as Pablo put it :
I also said that Belgium, my home country, what certainly not a civilization, not even one culture, as the country is separate by a language border like in Canada.
Would you consider Australia as a Civilization rather than a Nation? If you do, is Monaco or any tiny country a Civilization ? South American don't consider that a single country is a whole civilization itself. Why should America be more a civ, when I said that UK was not (mix of civs) and England was hardly a civ anymore since anybody could be British because of strong immigration.
Here is what I said that can be remembered :
(replying to Chinese American)
You are right ! America has a place in any scenario covering the 20th century, and I will also concede you the 19th the the last few decade of the 18th, even before independance (in a scenario called "Independance" , for instance). In scenarios, any civ is good and even better non-civs are good as well. Look at a WWII scenario with the Allied, Axis and neutral States. Where are the civs ? I don't care at all as anyway I almost always play scenarios.
That's a good point. Thank you for joining the debate anyway. Maybe I just wanted to see how many replies I could get on such sensitive a topic. For sure, It seems right that the name of the game leads to confusion. In Civilization, you can play a game without civilizations at all. You can even play with Dinosaurs, micro-organisms or the Simpsons if you wish. Nobody seemed to noticed that point so far. I think most people are more concerned about knowing if America really IS a Civ or not. As an historian and philosopher, I gave my definition of "civilization". You are welcome not to agree with it. The concept is somewhat vague and everyone can understand it so differently. This has shown well enough how people really CAN'T understand each other. This is why people have fought and will continue to fight each others throughout the ages. I don't hope it will get better one day, as the society and the language become always more complex, and people always more diverse.
I have had near to hatred replies because I dared considering America as not being a Civilization, but a Nation. If people react so promptly to so vague a statement (noboby seemed to understand what it meaned to be a civ, after all) I think we are still far from being civilised, not in the Antique , but post-modern sense of the term. I have intentionally put some highly provoking : statement such as "You Americans are Europeans' litlle brother" or the likes. It would almost be cute to say it if you'd just take it easy and laugh. But Human Beings are proud and don't like to hear such things. To be recognised as a civilization and to have created it independantly, is a pride not to be dismissed of. Even when one doen't know what it all really mean. It just sounded insulting in some way (didn't it ? ). We all want peace, but we all like war. The better we'd have to do is pass our anger on a good game like civ and avoid doing it for real.
Shaolin
Chieftain
America is in the game because it is the most powerful and influential civilization in the history of the world, plain and simple.
Its important to remember that it is a game. I don't think it would be so fun to play if the most powerful nation of our time was not in the game. Even if you do not count it as a nation rather than a civilization it should still be in. There will be plenty of other civs that have even less reason to be in the game if its like CTP2. The Welsh as a great civilization????
Also from a marketing point of view since a large amount of Americans will buy the game it makes sense to include them.
Also from a marketing point of view since a large amount of Americans will buy the game it makes sense to include them.
MindRunner
Faithful to CIV since 1991. :)
My dear American Civ Fan (as I am), with all kind respect:
Have you ever read a history book??
MindRunner
Faithful to CIV since 1991. :)
Ok, I quit! You are too many!
Now seriously. I guess you are right in what you said. Actually, when I think about the achievements the Americans did in the last century, I guess they (you) *do* deserve to be in the game, in the sense that the game is also about *achievements*, something that no one around here seems to remember (including myself! oops!).
For instance, the Journey to the Moon, cannot be forgotten, and it was done by the Americans, as well as many other things. But what really makes me sad, is the fact that the same criteria used to put in the Americans, left the Portuguese, the Spanish and many others out.
I don't want to give anyone a history lesson, but let us *please* not forget, that because of those same achievements there is a "Magellan's Expedition" which was done by the Portuguese (yes, not the Spanish as some people thinks!).
And one of the most known Spanish achievements of that time, the discovery of America, by Christopher Columbus (Cristovão Colombo), had, in fact, much more to do with the Portuguese than with the Spanish, with all due respect to the Spanish, who did many other important achievements throughout history.
Let us not forget that Columbus was born in Italy, and then moved to Portugal, where he lived most of his adult life. (He's wife was Portuguese!). It was there he learned much of what he needed and it was in Portugal that he got all the maps he used. In fact, he even asked the Portuguese king to let him do the Expedition under the Portuguese Flag, before asking Spain, but our (stupid king) did not allow him, and that's why he turned to Spain.
And the Portuguese did a lot of many other things as you know (or should know). If it were not the Portuguese, America would not have been discovered so soon, for sure, and you might not be so great as a nation today, because you simply wouldn't have had enough time to develop to where you are today. Just try to take out 100 years of development to your nation. Where would you stand?
The Portuguese completely changed the course of history in all the western world, but nobody seems to thank us for that or even remember it.
So, all I have to say is that I'm quite sad for this huge injustice, the not inclusion of Portugal (and also Spain) in the game.
Wooh wooh! Let us all agree that the Americans should be in, even though they may not have an original culture in some people's opinion. Games would simply not be fun without the American civ there to be pounded upon. I shall unleash my mighty samurai. Ho!
Ilspana
The Unready
Yeah, i have to admit that i enjoy crushing the pacifist americans in these games 
It wouldnt be the same without them, proper civ or not.
It wouldnt be the same without them, proper civ or not.
WarandPeace
Warlord
what's the point of this, Civ just a game not national pride.
Shaolin
Chieftain
Originally posted by silvagem
My dear American Civ Fan (as I am), with all kind respect:
Have you ever read a history book??
I have and that is exactly why I said that. America has had a wider influence around the world then any other Civ. Name a civilization that has had more influence across the world, or had such a dominate military.
Originally posted by Shaolin
I really wonder what book you've read, as the US weren't the most influencial civ in superficy and surely not in how long they were. History starts about 5000 years ago. The largest empire ever were :
1) British Empire end of 19th-beginning 20th century.
In Europe : Britain, Ireland, a few small European "colonies" (Gibralta, Malta, Chyprus...) + influence in Portugal.
In America : Canada, Belize, Jamaica and a few smaller Caribean islands, Guyana, Falklands islands, etc.
In Africa : roughly the eastern half of Africa, from South Africa to Egypt.
In the Middle-East and Asia : Influence in Israel, Jordan, Irak, a few emirates and real colonies in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Burma, Malaysia, Singapour, Hong-Kong + influence in Thailand, some Chinese cities (Shanghai...) and Japan.
In Oceania : Australia, New Zealand, many of the Pacific Islands.
2) France in the 18th-19th century.
During Napoleon's heydays, 3/4 of Europe, including Spain, Italy, Germany, the Benelux, Poland, Switzerland...
In America : Louisiana (1/4 of present-day US at the time), French Guyana, Guadeloupe, Martinique...
In Africa : Western half of Africa.
In Asia : Viet-nam, Laos, Cambodia...
In Oceania : New Caledonia, Polynesia...
3) Spain in the 16th and 17th century : When Spain and Portugal were one country, owned almost all of central and south Amercia + the states of Florida, California, Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, and so on. Portuguese had colonies all along the African coast, in India, Malaysia, China and Japan. The Netherlands and Belgium were also spanish at that time.
Others) China had a decisive influence in the world history for thousands of years. They invented black (gun) powder, the printing press, writing and many others things that have have tranmitted to others part of the world by trading with them.
Ancient Greek people have invented sciences, philosophy, drama, theater, logic, geometry, etc that have made of Europe later a rational and scientific civilization that could overwhelm all the others. American wouldn't exist without Europe, but Europe wouldn't be much without Ancient Greece. This influence started about 3000 years ago and is still very much present nowadays. It still influence deeply American, European or all the world people and cultures, though Ancient Greece doesn't exist for a long time. Don't you call this a strong historical influence ?
Rome had a larger empire than the size of the US now and kept it during centuries (more than 1500 if you consider the Eastern Roman Empire, ie Byzantium). They trade as far as India and China when it took decades to reach these countries, but American still don't trade with Aliens even though they have their SETI program and spaceships. :crazyeyes:
If America is so strong militarily, why should they be affraid of others much less developped countries such as Irak or Afganisthan at the point of making it a national psychosis ? If America is militarily strong, it's because it's a militaristic nation that has so many enemies around the world (like Israel, it's best friend). I wouldn't call this a good influence when European people find American superficial, prouds and without depth or real culture (gastronomy, litterature, philosophy, or even knowledge of its own language when I see all the mistake "native" American speaker make when they write), South American hate that the US put his nose in its internal affairs, and half of the rest of the world really don't appreciate American culture and people (be them Arabic, Chinese or else). I have nothing against America. I have American friends and I am tolerant as I have lived in many different countries and culture from all around Europe to Japan, passing by India and Australia. I have been to the States. But I hate to hear such arrogant comments like you and many others in this thread did. America is the best, more powerful, advanced, influencial, magnificient and dominating civilization the world has ever known, and comments like this are highly racist, intolerant, provocative (for some, war proning) and is probably the reason why the States have the present problem with bin Laden and co.
I don't care, I know you are not the best for everything like you say, because I have been to the States, I know it, its culture and people quite well, and I have travelled a lot. After comparison with other culture, I can't say America is half of what you suggest. I can only confirm that it is scientifically and militarily and has had a brilliant economy in the last 50 years, after Europe was ravaged by 2 World Wars. Don't be so haughty, you'll make new friends.
I really wonder what book you've read, as the US weren't the most influencial civ in superficy and surely not in how long they were. History starts about 5000 years ago. The largest empire ever were :
1) British Empire end of 19th-beginning 20th century.
In Europe : Britain, Ireland, a few small European "colonies" (Gibralta, Malta, Chyprus...) + influence in Portugal.
In America : Canada, Belize, Jamaica and a few smaller Caribean islands, Guyana, Falklands islands, etc.
In Africa : roughly the eastern half of Africa, from South Africa to Egypt.
In the Middle-East and Asia : Influence in Israel, Jordan, Irak, a few emirates and real colonies in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Burma, Malaysia, Singapour, Hong-Kong + influence in Thailand, some Chinese cities (Shanghai...) and Japan.
In Oceania : Australia, New Zealand, many of the Pacific Islands.
2) France in the 18th-19th century.
During Napoleon's heydays, 3/4 of Europe, including Spain, Italy, Germany, the Benelux, Poland, Switzerland...
In America : Louisiana (1/4 of present-day US at the time), French Guyana, Guadeloupe, Martinique...
In Africa : Western half of Africa.
In Asia : Viet-nam, Laos, Cambodia...
In Oceania : New Caledonia, Polynesia...
3) Spain in the 16th and 17th century : When Spain and Portugal were one country, owned almost all of central and south Amercia + the states of Florida, California, Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, and so on. Portuguese had colonies all along the African coast, in India, Malaysia, China and Japan. The Netherlands and Belgium were also spanish at that time.
Others) China had a decisive influence in the world history for thousands of years. They invented black (gun) powder, the printing press, writing and many others things that have have tranmitted to others part of the world by trading with them.
Ancient Greek people have invented sciences, philosophy, drama, theater, logic, geometry, etc that have made of Europe later a rational and scientific civilization that could overwhelm all the others. American wouldn't exist without Europe, but Europe wouldn't be much without Ancient Greece. This influence started about 3000 years ago and is still very much present nowadays. It still influence deeply American, European or all the world people and cultures, though Ancient Greece doesn't exist for a long time. Don't you call this a strong historical influence ?
Rome had a larger empire than the size of the US now and kept it during centuries (more than 1500 if you consider the Eastern Roman Empire, ie Byzantium). They trade as far as India and China when it took decades to reach these countries, but American still don't trade with Aliens even though they have their SETI program and spaceships. :crazyeyes:
If America is so strong militarily, why should they be affraid of others much less developped countries such as Irak or Afganisthan at the point of making it a national psychosis ? If America is militarily strong, it's because it's a militaristic nation that has so many enemies around the world (like Israel, it's best friend). I wouldn't call this a good influence when European people find American superficial, prouds and without depth or real culture (gastronomy, litterature, philosophy, or even knowledge of its own language when I see all the mistake "native" American speaker make when they write), South American hate that the US put his nose in its internal affairs, and half of the rest of the world really don't appreciate American culture and people (be them Arabic, Chinese or else). I have nothing against America. I have American friends and I am tolerant as I have lived in many different countries and culture from all around Europe to Japan, passing by India and Australia. I have been to the States. But I hate to hear such arrogant comments like you and many others in this thread did. America is the best, more powerful, advanced, influencial, magnificient and dominating civilization the world has ever known, and comments like this are highly racist, intolerant, provocative (for some, war proning) and is probably the reason why the States have the present problem with bin Laden and co.
I don't care, I know you are not the best for everything like you say, because I have been to the States, I know it, its culture and people quite well, and I have travelled a lot. After comparison with other culture, I can't say America is half of what you suggest. I can only confirm that it is scientifically and militarily and has had a brilliant economy in the last 50 years, after Europe was ravaged by 2 World Wars. Don't be so haughty, you'll make new friends.
A civilization is a group of people that share common ideologies. Ancient civilizations would develope different idealogies because of the lack of communications, so it was common for one settlement of people to have idealogies that were shared by no other.
In modern times however, the idealogy of democracy, freedom of thought and speech etc, are shared by numerous peoples.
For this reason I would have to say that the United States is not a civilization in itself, but a NATION representative of the larger WESTERN CIVILIZATION.
But I still think that the U.S.A should be included in CIV III.
As for all this Test of Time talk, The USA is far to young to have passed that test. I have no doubt that you WILL INDEED pass with flying colors, but your test of time only started from December 7, 1941. You still have another 500 - 600 years before winning that award.
I would say the only country to stand the Test of Time would be Great Britain.
In modern times however, the idealogy of democracy, freedom of thought and speech etc, are shared by numerous peoples.
For this reason I would have to say that the United States is not a civilization in itself, but a NATION representative of the larger WESTERN CIVILIZATION.
But I still think that the U.S.A should be included in CIV III.
As for all this Test of Time talk, The USA is far to young to have passed that test. I have no doubt that you WILL INDEED pass with flying colors, but your test of time only started from December 7, 1941. You still have another 500 - 600 years before winning that award.
I would say the only country to stand the Test of Time would be Great Britain.
jc011
Rider of Rohan
well, americans, canadians, and australians, aren't really civilizations, they all originate from Britain... or it must be a really big coincidence they all speak english
BusterBunny
Early Procrastinator
coughcoughtypicalenglishcanadiananswertosaythatcanadaisenglishcoughcough
:crazyeyes
Traquenard-fx
Freedom for my poeple
I agree with you BusterBunny!
:slay:Little Sicily
Chieftain
I'm pretty sure the Test doesn't really begin until the country/empire no longer exists.
Some pretty good points have been made in this thread, and I have to concede that America is indeed not a "proper" civ, though I believe it's a bit premature to say it's not a civ at all.
I think it deserves to be in Civ III, however, even going back to 4000 B.C. These reasons may strike the scholars among you as superficial, but we're talking about a game here.
1. It's been in the series since Civ I
2. The main game *always* begins at 4000 B.C. If there was a menu option that would allow you to start the game in different eras (and seed population centers accordingly) then I could see forbidding certain civs from appearing in ancient times. Perhaps we'll see this in Civ IV.
3. There aren't any elements of empire flux in the game that would give an excuse to exclude America. Even the empire split (if it's still in the game) requires the system to use a Civ that is available from the start.
4. The name of the civ seems to reflect the popular term for it at the height of it's power. Rome, not Italy; English, not British or Anglo-Saxons; America, not "The Colonies."
5. The name also has more to do with the ruling body than the people under it. How many in the Roman Empire were really Roman?
6. The game is more about how your civilization *ends* than how it begins.
7. The scenarios are flexible, so much so that you can change what the game is about. Civ II is rife with scenarios that cater to players who like to break stuff, build stuff, or depict elements of fantasy or science fiction, even though there are hundreds of games that do these specific tasks better. America doesn't have to be in the game if you don't want it to be.
8. The Statue of Liberty is a wonder of the world (maybe still in Civ III)
9. Sid Meyer really likes America
10. Arguements over what civs should be in the game, expecially now that it's gone gold, are boring and inevitably lead to arguements over who should/shouldn't be the leader of said civs, which are also boring. :crazyeyes
Little Sicily has already signed on to beta test Civ IV
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