The attack on the 1972 olympics in Munich

[G-Man]

German inner politics are a matter for Germans, not for the rest of the world - unless they effect other countries as well.
It would be stupid to think that terrorists that kill civilians and consider it a mission from god will respect the spirit of the olympics.
I don't see anything wrong with the Israelis being guarded by the Germans, as long as Germany would make it clear that it's for their protection and due to fears of terrorism.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by G-Man
German inner politics are a matter for Germans, not for the rest of the world - unless they effect other countries as well.
It would be stupid to think that terrorists that kill civilians and consider it a mission from god will respect the spirit of the olympics.
I don't see anything wrong with the Israelis being guarded by the Germans, as long as Germany would make it clear that it's for their protection and due to fears of terrorism.

You see it like that now (me too) but that is now and not 30 years ago.
It was anything but inner politics the whole presentation issue was purely foreign politics or rather foreign symbolism.
The 1972 Olympics were the first big international event in post-war Germany, furthermore they were only the second Olympics in Germany after the 1936 Olympics in Berlin. Those had of course been abused as a propaganda measure by the Nazis.
The 1972 events were seen as the chance to correct the image of Germany in the world. Therefore the intend was to present the country as much against the stereotypical (Nazi-) image as possible.
You have to take the time into account. Saying that you or I would have seen or done things different isn't valid, we have 30 more years expirience of history, especially German history as well as history of terrorism.
And by the way, those terrorists back then were no muslim fundamentalists with "a mission from God". They had rather secular motives and ideas.

 

[AVN]

I agree with Hitro. It was a complete different time.
I still remember it. (I was 9 years old then). The world was shocked that something like that could happen at an Olympics.
Almost the same shock as we had at 9/11. Nobody could think of that before.

For that reason I don't believe we should blame the Germans too much.

 

[G-Man]

I blame the CIA and FBI for not stoppping the sep11th attacks. Both things weren't thought of by ordinary people, but those who are incharge of security could've and should've thought about it. Saying they didn't expect it is an excuse, not a justification.

As to their image - did they ever think about not putting all the police infront of the cameras? Put a few elite police units in a building on stand by for emergencies.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by G-Man
As to their image - did they ever think about not putting all the police infront of the cameras? Put a few elite police units in a building on stand by for emergencies.

They didn't even have elite police units prior to 1972. That's the historical context you have to see. There has never in centuries been an incident of international terrorism in Germany, not even much domestic terrorism, compared with other countries.
This is most likely connected to the extreme authoritarian Prussian culture that ruled the country before.
But the world in general hadn't seen much of it yet. It was in the 70s when it really started.

The thought of people attacking athletes at the Olympics was simply unthinkable to most, including the security forces. There was no Osama bin Laden who had declared war on the USA like in the case of Sept. 11th.

 

[G-Man]

No, but there was a PLO and there was hamas and there was Palestinian terrorism for decades.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by G-Man
No, but there was a PLO and there was hamas and there was Palestinian terrorism for decades.

There was a PLO. Hamas grew out of the Muslim brotherhood later. Their terrorist activities began to start in 1987 with the first Intifada. In the early 90s, 1993 I think, they carried out their first suicide bombing. Hamas wasn't a factor in 1972.
Palestinian terrorism had up to the attack we talk about here been widely restricted to the Middle East. There was no significant (Arab) international terrorism before the 70s.

 

[G-Man]

After a suicide bombing in which the suicide bomber exploded a car bomb next to bus, a couple of Israeli comedians had an "interview", with one of them dressed up as a news reporter and the other as the head of the police.
Interviewer: "Sir, you said you were prepared for suicide bombers attacking busses. How could this have happened?"
Policeman: "No, we said we were ready for suicide bombers to explode INSIDE the bus. This suicide bomber surprised us by attacking from the SIDE of the bus"
I: "Yes, but don't you think you should thought about such a posibility?"
P: "We didn't think it could happen. But now we are prepared to handle suicide bombings that occur on the side of the bus"
I: "But what if the next suicide bombing will come from the back of the bus?"
P: "the back of the bus? Could happen! let me just take a note. Very good, very good, now we'll be prepared to handle suicide bombings that happen at the back of the bus!"
etc

The criticism of this is obvious - the police (or in our case the security forces) should forsee a possibility of an attack. Terrorism wasn't invented in the 70s, 60s or anytime close to it. The fact is that German police was responsible to protect the athlets. It didn't. Explanations don't make it any better. They're good for an investigation comitee to prevent such things in the future. They're not good for justifying their failure. Every mistake has an explanation. It doesn't mean there aren't mistakes and it doesn't mean that peoplem who make mistakes don't apologize and don't try to fix what they've done wrong.

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by G-Man
I blame the CIA and FBI for not stoppping the sep11th attacks. Both things weren't thought of by ordinary people, but those who are incharge of security could've and should've thought about it. Saying they didn't expect it is an excuse, not a justification.

There is nothing to say that they didn't think about it. Clancy wrote a book about a plane flying into the US Capitol several years ago. Considering it though does not mean that you will always be able to prevent it.

 

[nixon]

But he's partially right, because it's very true that both the CIA and the FBI operate on a clandestine level which isn't even felt by the President himself, the fragments of information basically remain CIA/FBI knowledge, the intelligence is merely revealed to any senior White House officials or top officials in the Pentagon. A very inefficient way of doing things, same goes for the NSA which operates a little too independantly without informing either the White House nor the Pentagon about 9/10 threats and so forth and so on. Serious intelligence reforms have been created, and must continue to evolve into forming better relationships and cooperation between the bureaus.

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by nixon
But he's partially right, because it's very true that both the CIA and the FBI operate on a clandestine level which isn't even felt by the President himself, the fragments of information basically remain CIA/FBI knowledge, the intelligence is merely revealed to any senior White House officials or top officials in the Pentagon. A very inefficient way of doing things, same goes for the NSA which operates a little too independantly without informing either the White House nor the Pentagon about 9/10 threats and so forth and so on. Serious intelligence reforms have been created, and must continue to evolve into forming better relationships and cooperation between the bureaus.

I won't argue that there can't be reforms, but I think we may be going too far if we demand perfection. I think it is too easy to just say, "Planes flew into buildings, the CIA, FBI failed." There will obviously be things they could have done better, and perhaps they really did fail, but I doubt that we have the knowledge to really make that determination.

Take Pearl Harbor. Sure we know now that warnings were ignored, threats were inappropriately responded to, and we can fairly assign a decent portion of blame to Kimmel and Short. However now, one year after the attack, all we can do is what was done at the time, find a scapegoat. In that case, the scapegoats were guilty, but it is not a foregone conclusion.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by knowltok2
There is nothing to say that they didn't think about it. Clancy wrote a book about a plane flying into the US Capitol several years ago. Considering it though does not mean that you will always be able to prevent it.

I know, I read it

And they didn't need to look at the book in order to know that such a thing could happen. I don't know how it's in the USAF, but the IAF has been practicing for such scenarios for years. Even back in the 70s during the plane hijacking period every plane that was to be landed in Israel was told to go to the negev - the Israeli desert. Also, just a few months before the sep 11th attacks, a Lebanoneese civilian plane (a cessna) was shot down over Natanya after crossing the border and flying more than half way to tel aviv, and the IAF explained the decision to shoot it down (first operational shot down by an apache) saying they feared it would crush into civilian buildings in Tel Aviv.