The British Empire: a force for good

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by Blackadder
And Knight-dragon, what part of Malaysia are you talking about? Some of it was Portugese, then Dutch, then British, so you may not have not noticed much of a change....

The last non-British European possession in Malaysia was Malacca which the Dutch passed to the British in exchange for Bencoulen (spelling?) in Sumatra in 1824. I am talking about the whole of Malaysia which was British in its entirety. But exactly what are you referring to? Not very sure ...

 

[Knight-Dragon]

On my passport it reads: "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", so rolleyes try be slightly correct in the future.

I didn't know that. Hmmmm, so it's still part of the official name for the UK. I had apparently thought the British dropped off the 'Great' part fr 'Great Britain', going by the news and stuff, a long time ago.

Well, you learn something new everyday .... Now I know the British still consider themselves Great and beyond others, but in such a quiet inconspicious manner that an ignorant person such as myself didn't know it. Thanks for the info.

Britain is made up of Celtic people including myself who has Irish ancestors, idiot. Wales and not so much scotland is celtic and is a part of the United Kingdom.

So I am an idiot now, am I?

So what language are you writing/speaking now? Is it per chance the evolved modern-day language of the Anglo-Saxons? Sure the descendants of the Celts still abound in Wales, Scotland and Ireland but let's be realistic. The descendants of the Germanic Anglo-Saxons rule in the British Isles.

Going by your logic of whoever first saw a land shall rule it forever more, then the British isles today would have been ruled by the descendants of the Romanized Celts and be speaking Gaelic or Welsh. Sadly, things like that don't happen in real life. Same with the Falkland Islands.

PS I don't have problems with you except for you calling the Argentinians stinking, fascist and murderous. Now that you've buried the hatchet so shall I. Peace.

 

[Sayhueque]

well, redtom is just another redneck. I expected more from the English, I considered Britain to have more... how do you call it... tact? Respectful decorum towards other?

 

[redtom]

In case your wondering, the Great bit was added by the French when the proposal of an united Britain was suggested, I'm not sure if this is completely true. Any ideas-I know it doesn't mean great as in superb, excellent etc. but in size.

 

[redtom]

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
I didn't know that. Hmmmm, so it's still part of the official name for the UK. I had apparently thought the British dropped off the 'Great' part fr 'Great Britain', going by the news and stuff, a long time ago.

Well, you learn something new everyday .... Now I know the British still consider themselves Great and beyond others, but in such a quiet inconspicious manner that an ignorant person such as myself didn't know it. Thanks for the info.

So I am an idiot now, am I?

So what language are you writing/speaking now? Is it per chance the evolved modern-day language of the Anglo-Saxons? Sure the descendants of the Celts still abound in Wales, Scotland and Ireland but let's be realistic. The descendants of the Germanic Anglo-Saxons rule in the British Isles.

Going by your logic of whoever first saw a land shall rule it forever more, then the British isles today would have been ruled by the descendants of the Romanized Celts and be speaking Gaelic or Welsh. Sadly, things like that don't happen in real life. Same with the Falkland Islands.

PS I don't have problems with you except for you calling the Argentinians stinking, fascist and murderous. Now that you've buried the hatchet so shall I. Peace.

In your country, Singapore there are considerable minority groups, like your country are powers shared among all the people therefore no single peoples/ethnic group/nationality rule over another.

In fact English majority in terms of electoral power have less. Scotland and Wales have two parliaments-Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly and the British Houses of Parliament. The english, however, only have the British Houses of Parliament to appeal to.

Also, there is no real difference in are country in terms of ethnicity. Most, if not all British people have a bit of Celtic and Germanic in them from countless Celtic, Pict, Angle, Saxon, Jute and Viking raids. (Vikings should be classed as Germanic as scandinavia was originally home to the teutonic tribes who became Goths, Vikings, Angles etc. etc. Until they spread round most places where celts once lived.
Also as 8 million Irish people live in Britain, mainly in London and many Scots and the Welsh they are spread far and wide, many people I know (I live in London) have a bit welsh, scottish and irish in them.
Wales and Scotland are giving more per head in pounds from the government. In fact scottish are one and half times more subsidised than the English, but us English understand we can't let one place be poor and the other rich, distributing the wealth of are great nation is honourable and intelligent thing to do. To hold are nation together against the savage and macabre continental Europeans.

So instead of think as the British as just the English of Anglo-Saxon language (that says nothing of ancestry or ethnicity).

Britain is happy mixture of Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings, Celts, Picts, Normans, Jews and many other peoples from around Europe and beyond. Who share their vote equally in the mother of all parliaments.

P.S.Nobody thinks of seperating the isles in Britain except those ****ing idiot scottish nationalists who don't understand how much there a strain on British resources, that includes my uncle. But the scots are vital for are nation, after all it wasn't just the English who created the British Empire and made are nation what it is.

PSS Singapore must have benefitted from being a British colony, after all the British built the vital port to make it one of the greatest nations in Asia.

Oh yeah, before I forget, I said the Argentines were murderous fascists, I was right: isn't it the conquerors who decide history.

Also, before some idiot American starts quoting the massively historically inaccurate "Braveheart" movie (Some historians called counter-historical or "anti-historical").
We don't surpress are "Celtic" minority, thats all American bull****.
1)The Scots and the Welsh have more constitutional power.
2)Most people in England are celtic in origin.
3)Quite a lot Scottish people have Viking names therefore can not be called Celtic. (Irish also have some Viking "blood" in them.

 

[Kublai-Khan]

Originally posted by redtom
Oh yeah, before I forget, I said the Argentines were murderous fascists, I was right: isn't it the conquerors who decide history.

Can you describe the chileans who helped England during the falklands war?
They were under the dictatorship of Pinochet, and most of the intelligence about the movement of ground troops gas given to the british by Chile,
This is why Ms Tatcher said he was an heroic man when he was in Britain waiting for the judgement.
He was as bad as the argentinean dictators,
How do you describe him?

As an heroic murderous fascist?
Or Just heroic and let´s forget those bad things.

And
i want to believe you are joking,
if in fact you are joking, i would like to recommend you to use
on of these faces------ or
so
i know that you are just joking.
And if you believe what you just said,
it would be useless to keep on being in this thread.
I don´t like to insult people.

 

[redtom]

Pinoche was a murderous fascist, after all he got overthrown, so i am the conqueror.

One of my teachers, a staunch marxist (knew my dad from the Marxist underground) lost a few friends trying to fight for communism in Chile. Pinochio, unsurprisingly, killed them, like those spaniards who were in the news years ago.

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
Coming from an ex-British colonial territory (M'sia and S'pore), I only have this to say - things have gotten about ten thousand times better since independence from the British.......... But compared with the French, Dutch etc, the British were OK as imperialists go. But the Americans today (who stepped into the British global role during WW2) are much better.

I must say that the British are the best thing that could have happened to Singapore. Besides the port thing, everyone is english speaking which diffuses the racial tension that exists everywhere else in South-ease Asia.

One more parallel we can see is the development of HK until 1997. Things got 10,000 times better there too - so the prosperity in Singapore is in part just due to being a part of the region.

As I recall from Lee Kuan Yew's (who did a damn fine job of keeping the country going the decades after the British left) memoirs, he was practically begging them not to leave.

p.s. Redtom, Knight Dragon from Malaysia, he only works (or studies?) in Singapore.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by kobayashi
I must say that the British are the best thing that could have happened to Singapore. Besides the port thing, everyone is english speaking which diffuses the racial tension that exists everywhere else in South-ease Asia.

One more parallel we can see is the development of HK until 1997. Things got 10,000 times better there too - so the prosperity in Singapore is in part just due to being a part of the region.

As I recall from Lee Kuan Yew's (who did a damn fine job of keeping the country going the decades after the British left) memoirs, he was practically begging them not to leave.

p.s. Redtom, Knight Dragon from Malaysia, he only works (or studies?) in Singapore.

I am getting tired of telling people I am not a Singaporean and I'll never be. I only work here upon graduating fr a local university but I guess there's no help for it, considering how huge our forums are nowadays. :crazyeyes

A hundred years fr now, when I think China will completely redominate the region again, being English-speaking may not be all that cool but for now, what Kobayashi says is extremely true to a certain extent. I will only say that when the Brits were in Spore and HK, they were only there strictly in their own interests; and certainly not to improve the lot of the locals.

Put it this way; would you prefer Spore today go back to being a British Crown Colony if the British are indeed the best thing to have happened to Spore?

PS When I posted that original quote, I think I was extremely pissed off by someone. Not sure what or why now but I think it has something to do with the notion that the British Empire is good for everybody incl its ruled or something.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by redtom
In fact English majority in terms of electoral power have less. Scotland and Wales have two parliaments-Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly and the British Houses of Parliament. The english, however, only have the British Houses of Parliament to appeal to.

Methinks, 'electoral power' is not measured by how many parliaments you can appeal to, but by how big the effect a certain group has on a voting democracy. In effect, the English majority dominates Britain thru numbers alone.

Also, there is no real difference in are country in terms of ethnicity. Most, if not all British people have a bit of Celtic and Germanic in them from countless Celtic, Pict, Angle, Saxon, Jute and Viking raids. (Vikings should be classed as Germanic as scandinavia was originally home to the teutonic tribes who became Goths, Vikings, Angles etc. etc. Until they spread round most places where celts once lived.
Also as 8 million Irish people live in Britain, mainly in London and many Scots and the Welsh they are spread far and wide, many people I know (I live in London) have a bit welsh, scottish and irish in them.

True.

Wales and Scotland are giving more per head in pounds from the government. In fact scottish are one and half times more subsidised than the English, but us English understand we can't let one place be poor and the other rich, distributing the wealth of are great nation is honourable and intelligent thing to do. To hold are nation together against the savage and macabre continental Europeans.

Savage and macabre continental Europeans?

So instead of think as the British as just the English of Anglo-Saxon language (that says nothing of ancestry or ethnicity).

Britain is happy mixture of Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings, Celts, Picts, Normans, Jews and many other peoples from around Europe and beyond. Who share their vote equally in the mother of all parliaments.

From my earliest point, I am not saying Britain is an unequal state or the Scots or Welsh are being oppressed. Pls reread my posts again if necessary. All I am saying is that ultimately, at the end of the day, the English dominates the Parliament (and Britain) simply by being the majority in any decision-making exercise. That's ALL.

Oh yeah, before I forget, I said the Argentines were murderous fascists, I was right: isn't it the conquerors who decide history.

There you go again ... Stop picking on the Argentines and my buddy, Kublai!

2)Most people in England are celtic in origin.

I find this very hard to believe for some reason ..... :crazyeyes

This will be my last post in reply to your posts. I am getting very tired of arguing this point in a foreign language (to me) .....

 

[redtom]

Geographically England does exist but in terms of ethnicity there is very few differences between a Scot and Englishman due to mass culture and internal migration. So there is no Englishmen just people who live in the region of England.

Geographically England does dominate because it has a far larger population than any other region within the United Kingdom. But as I said before constitutionally English are less powerful than the Scots or Welsh. You've got to remember the United Kingdom is an equal union between England, Scotland, N. Ireland and Wales so nobody dominates.

Scotland is furilly anglicised speaking English. As for Wales, welsh still exists due to appeals made to Queen Victoria, she the pleaded to Parliament to make the changes necessary.

As for the Celtic thing, if you know British history well you would relise a few celts ever made it Britain. Britain previously was of an earlier Mother Earth worshipping people-the ancient name for the British Isles was Albion. We the Albions were highly influenced by the improved agriculture etc. that just like people today speaking english we became celtic speakers. We later lost are past and became furilly "celticised" so we became Celts.

Anyway, most people have some celtic blood as they were the dominant people in the past and now that so much internal migration happened most people have a bit of Irish or Scot or Manx, or Welsh in them. Celtic culture is effectively a lie when it says people in these areas are exclusively Celtic, they're just a mixture of ancestry as people in England.

The "Celts" have no problem with the United Kingdom as are Royal Family are distantly related to the original celtic kings of Scotland. Are Kings and Queens visit scotland and wales assisting there people in Celtic festivals like the Highland Games etc.

 

[knowltok]

You mean Braveheart isn't 100% accurate? I find that hard to beleive given Hollywood's stellar record of producing historically accurate movies. After all, the Titanic DID sink. I mean, they got that right, didn't they?

Actually I'd say that Redtom is doing a marvelous job of charicaturing those same kneejerk Americans he is warning us about, right down to the bad grammer. It makes a wonderful object lesson of how it looks to blindly support your country and cause without taking a look at how things might be precieved from another perspective. Hopefully many of the Americans he refers to will read his posts and see the folly of their ways. Kudos Redtom keep up the good work.

 

[DingBat]

Originally posted by redtom
Pinoche was a murderous fascist, after all he got overthrown, so i am the conqueror.

One of my teachers, a staunch marxist (knew my dad from the Marxist underground) lost a few friends trying to fight for communism in Chile. Pinochio, unsurprisingly, killed them, like those spaniards who were in the news years ago.

My next door neighbour is Chilean. They were reasonably well off, well educated, professionals when Allende came to power. Their business was taken from them and they left the country basically to avoid being shot.

Now, they have nothing good to say about Pinochet, but on the other hand, they have nothing good to say about the Marxists either.

/bruce

 

[Kublai-Khan]

Originally posted by DingBat


My next door neighbour is Chilean. They were reasonably well off, well educated, professionals when Allende came to power. Their business was taken from them and they left the country basically to avoid being shot.

Now, they have nothing good to say about Pinochet, but on the other hand, they have nothing good to say about the Marxists either.

/bruce

Maybe what i am saying it is false, i don´t know much about Chile,
but
if i remember correctly chile has the biggest communist party of latin america -of course without counting cuba-
And the society is very divided almost in 2 half.
Many people support Allende who was socialist but he was voted in a democratic election with the people support, he wasnt a dictator, he was a democratic leftist president.
Many people say that his government wa´s very bad, but it is strongly related with the fact of the USA doing the imposible to make his government fail.
And many people support Pinochet now, he did great things for the economy of chile, this group sometimes tries to avoid
and even justifies sometimes the 10.000 victims.
And some people don´t like any of those.


Maybe you can ask to your neighbor what happened, i am really interested.
I ignored than that kinf of things happened in chile.

This happened in Argentina
My grandfather was a middle class merchant with a shop and some rooms that he rented .
When Peron came to power -he was elected, it was a democracy
he wasnt nazi-(i don´t know why so many people believe that in foreign countries)
he made lots of laws protecting and giving rights to the poor people, the peron government took the rooms of my grandfather
and gave them to the poor people without paying to my grandfather a penny.
Of course my grandfather hated Peron until his dead becouse of that,
but you can´t deny all the good things he did for the poor people.

Maybe the same happened in Chile, maybe Allende did that, but he also did great things agains the little kids malnutrition and in favour of poor people.
You always have to touch someone´s interest in these countries, and that won´t make you be loved by all the people.

 

[amadeus]

I don't really have any opinion about the colonies (except for their racketeering of us some two hundred years ago), but I don't like it when the UK acts like it is still the No. 1 power in the world.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by redtom
In fact English majority in terms of electoral power have less. Scotland and Wales have two parliaments-Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly and the British Houses of Parliament. The english, however, only have the British Houses of Parliament to appeal to.

The Welsh assembly has little actual policy making power. It's main purpose is to act as a sort of Neo-Welsh office, really, with it simply deciding how to spend the money that is allocated to it from Westminster. The Scottish parliament has limited tax raising powers, and Scotland has historically had many seperate systems from England, and still does. To conclude, Britain is far frm being a federal system, and really, The houses of parliament are still the soverign body in the country. Well, sort of.

Originally posted by redtom
Also, there is no real difference in are country in terms of ethnicity. Most, if not all British people have a bit of Celtic and Germanic in them from countless Celtic, Pict, Angle, Saxon, Jute and Viking raids. (Vikings should be classed as Germanic as scandinavia was originally home to the teutonic tribes who became Goths, Vikings, Angles etc. etc. Until they spread round most places where celts once lived.

I'm not sure exactly how widespread Celtic ethnicity is, although I'm sure that it's less than you say. Certainly in England, Celts only really held sway in Cornwall, and nowhere else.

Originally posted by redtom
Wales and Scotland are giving more per head in pounds from the government. In fact scottish are one and half times more subsidised than the English, but us English understand we can't let one place be poor and the other rich, distributing the wealth of are great nation is honourable and intelligent thing to do.

The Equation for the allocation of funds to Scotland and Wales is fossilised.

As a Northern Englander this particularly disturbs me, as I feel we get shafted the most out of the whole country. The South is given prevalence, and Wales and Scotland are dilliberately over-represented at Westminster (A compromise in the 70's to placate nationalism) and have their own representative instiutions.

If a vote for a Northern Assembly ever happens, I will be voting "Yes".

Originally posted by redtom
To hold are nation together against the savage and macabre continental Europeans.

Pardon? Have you being sniffing something?

Originally posted by redtom
So instead of think as the British as just the English of Anglo-Saxon language (that says nothing of ancestry or ethnicity).

The English language is derived from more sources I can name. Latin, Greek, Icelandic, Old high German, Old Norse, French, etc etc.

Originally posted by redtom
P.S.Nobody thinks of seperating the isles in Britain except those ****ing idiot scottish nationalists who don't understand how much there a strain on British resources, that includes my uncle. But the scots are vital for are nation, after all it wasn't just the English who created the British Empire and made are nation what it is.

Nationalism in Wales is mainly a cultural presevation movement, at present. Obviously, most people in Scotland wanted devolution, but those who want actual independance remains at about 25% (Possibly less), I believe.

Originally posted by redtom
PSS Singapore must have benefitted from being a British colony, after all the British built the vital port to make it one of the greatest nations in Asia.

It benefited from being contolled by a relatively stable Western nation, That took the care to build it up as a trading colony for profit.

Originally posted by redtom
Also, before some idiot American starts quoting the massively historically inaccurate "Braveheart" movie (Some historians called counter-historical or "anti-historical").

I sincerely hope nobody does use Braveheart as a history lesson. Many, regardless of citizenship probably will, though, I daresay.

Originally posted by rmsharpe
but I don't like it when the UK acts like it is still the No. 1 power in the world.

When does this ever occur? Being British, I can only say that our role recently has been involved in complying absolutely with whatever America wants or suggests, being involved with other nations in peacekeeping operations and resolving certain conflicts in Ex-colonial areas such as Sierra Leone.

I am truly sorry if we ever showed a hint of independance of thought in any matters.

Originally posted by Knight Dragon
I didn't know that. Hmmmm, so it's still part of the official name for the UK. I had apparently thought the British dropped off the 'Great' part fr 'Great Britain', going by the news and stuff, a long time ago.

"Great Britain" comes from the need to distinguish it from "Lesser Britain" (Britany) in ancient times.

 

[Blackadder]

Okay then, lets call it Magna Britannica! (before anyone says, I realise this was the Roman name for mid to lower England, 'Brittanica Superior')

We are really getting of the point, this thread was about the British Empire, not the South Americans, not purely England, Wales or Scotland, but the former Empire.

It may interest others however, to know that SCOTLAND boasts a majority in having many of the now in power members of Parliament having gone to school in Scotland or being Scottish and I can tell you that 'we've done a fine job! '


Its pointless trying to decide just what the English language is made of. Probably best to think of a divide over former Roman territories, with Italy, Spain, Portugal and France being the 'Latin-speakers', Germany and the rest being the Germanic speakers, and us Brits being a mixture of the two.

'the savage and macabre continental Europeans.'

Funny, if you replace a few words, you get the English

When Mary, queen of Scots went to grow up in France, it was often the French thought of Scotland being a backward, dirty, barbaric nation and they were probably right. So what must their opinion of Wales and England have been?

Back to the Thread topic, what about the British people themselves? It seemed the rich got richer and the poor got poorer, not a good example from a nation of goodness.

George Bernard Shaw (Irish) once said :

'Englishmen will never be slaves; they are free to do whatever the government and public opinion allows them'

 

[Suppersalmon]

originaly posted by blackadder
Okay then, lets call it Magna Britannica! (before anyone says, I realise this was the Roman name for mid to lower England, 'Brittanica Superior')

We are really getting of the point, this thread was about the British Empire, not the South Americans, not purely England, Wales or Scotland, but the former Empire.

It may interest others however, to know that SCOTLAND boasts a majority in having many of the now in power members of Parliament having gone to school in Scotland or being Scottish and I can tell you that 'we've done a fine job! '


Its pointless trying to decide just what the English language is made of. Probably best to think of a divide over former Roman territories, with Italy, Spain, Portugal and France being the 'Latin-speakers', Germany and the rest being the Germanic speakers, and us Brits being a mixture of the two.

'the savage and macabre continental Europeans.'

Funny, if you replace a few words, you get the English

When Mary, queen of Scots went to grow up in France, it was often the French thought of Scotland being a backward, dirty, barbaric nation and they were probably right. So what must their opinion of Wales and England have been?

Back to the Thread topic, what about the British people themselves? It seemed the rich got richer and the poor got poorer, not a good example from a nation of goodness.

George Bernard Shaw (Irish) once said :

'Englishmen will never be slaves; they are free to do whatever the government and public opinion allows them'


__________________
The best laid plans of mice and men gang aft glea.

originaly posted by blackadder

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by Suppersalmon
originaly posted by blackadder

Was there actually a point to that?

 

[knowltok3]

No. It appears that the only thing it did was bring an old dead thread back and make me look through it to find nothing new. Now I've done it. Sorry to all the masses that check this thread seeing my name and thinking that an invaluable piece of wisdom awaits you. Unfortunately it does not. For the sake of the board as a whole, and me in particular, let's let this thread die.

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