The C-Word

L

licker

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Messages
94
Yerp... that'd be Cheese, don't get too excited :p

So I may be a bit out of line here, not having the game and what not, but I 've been reading some SGs and reviews and other articles and there's one thing that really bothers me.

That thing is the mechanics of unit promotions. I get that its nice to save them up for a rainy day, and its nice to spam them to heal your units up quickly, but both of those actions just scream CHEESE at me.

I don't want to get into any realism debates here, though they could apply, but I understand game mechanics don't have to be particularly realistic, so long as they have a reason for being in the game in the first place. And I submit that the current mechanism has its benefits (really more benefits than it deserves, which is why I think its cheese).

So here's my suggestion. Units are not allowed to move while they are eligable for promotions.

That's pretty simple I think and it makes sense to me, and its not as 'abusable' as the current system.

So what's the other sides arguement?

I should point out that I'm more interested in this due to my perception that the AI doesn't manage the promotions as well, that is the AI uses them immediately. If the AI engages in the same cheesy behavior, then it isn't really cheese anymore, though I would still submit that it is another unneeded advantage for the player due to AIs being generally bad decision makers :)
 
Quite frankly I don't understand half of what you write. Cheese or no cheese. :hmm:

That is, I understand you advocate against allowing moving units while they are elegible for promotions. I see no reasons for this or how this could be any form of "cheating".
 
Although I can see the advantages of saving promotions I have never done this.

When I am building an army or just exploring the map I spend promotions right away. I have planned out most of my unit promotions based upon my play style and the concept of combined arms.

Building three units to attack the enemy? I make one 'medic' unit, one defensive unit and one city assault unit. Why wait?

What happens if you get attacked before you can spend the promotions? All the experience gone to waste. What if by spending in advance you could have saved the unit?

I am not sure how the AI does things but I have even seen barbarian units with promotions.

Maybe the strategy of saving promotions might work against the AI but against another player I could see this as a big looser.
 
He thinks that it's unfair / unrealistic / unfun that you can wait with promoting a unit until you exactly know what it needs in a given situation. For example, you can delay a promotion of your swordsman untuil he encounters knights, then you give him the "bonus vs. mounted" promotion and eben heal him a little.
 
Psyringe said:
He thinks that it's unfair / unrealistic / unfun that you can wait with promoting a unit until you exactly know what it needs in a given situation. For example, you can delay a promotion of your swordsman untuil he encounters knights, then you give him the "bonus vs. mounted" promotion and eben heal him a little.
Click to expand...
Hmm.. Yeah, I suppose that could be helpful indeed to wait with a "bonus vs. mounted". How would a promotion cause healing?
 
Mercade said:
Hmm.. Yeah, I suppose that could be helpful indeed to wait with a "bonus vs. mounted". How would a promotion cause healing?
Click to expand...

Every promotion process heals the promoted unit by a small amount.
 
Since this thread got broken a couple of days ago I'm topping it to see if I can get some more replys.
 
Well, why not simply divorce the healing and the promotion aspects? Have a unit which has passed an experience threshold get the healing effect at the start of its next turn but allow the player to grant it a promotion at a later time - makes sense to me.
 
This thread is cheesey.
 
Cheese is to get people into the thread, and express the sentiment rather boldly.

As to the point...

I think that allowing unit promotions to be saved from turn to turn is a bad thing in that it (likely) is an element the AI cannot deal with properly. Of course I could be wrong, but if you had read my last paragraph in the initial post you would have seen that I already asked this question.

So to try again...

I don't understand why units heal with promotions, and I don't think that being allowed to save up promotions makes sense. Further I think that it likely negatively impacts the human AI balance (assuming that you want a 'stronger' AI).

My solution was to force the player to use promotions before being allowed to move a unit, this gets away from the rush unpromoted but experienced units to the front, let them get knocked around alittle, then immediately heal them (not fully sure, but it would appear to be a factor). The 'cheese' part of this comes in if the AI is not able to do this, as now we have a game mechanism which only benefits the player, and in a rather unrealistic and unsatisfing way.
 
licker said:
Cheese is to get people into the thread, and express the sentiment rather boldly.

As to the point...

I think that allowing unit promotions to be saved from turn to turn is a bad thing in that it (likely) is an element the AI cannot deal with properly. Of course I could be wrong, but if you had read my last paragraph in the initial post you would have seen that I already asked this question.

So to try again...

I don't understand why units heal with promotions, and I don't think that being allowed to save up promotions makes sense. Further I think that it likely negatively impacts the human AI balance (assuming that you want a 'stronger' AI).

My solution was to force the player to use promotions before being allowed to move a unit, this gets away from the rush unpromoted but experienced units to the front, let them get knocked around alittle, then immediately heal them (not fully sure, but it would appear to be a factor). The 'cheese' part of this comes in if the AI is not able to do this, as now we have a game mechanism which only benefits the player, and in a rather unrealistic and unsatisfing way.
Click to expand...


Seems to be logical fix to an imbalancing issue. Though... this is not something I've seen done. Not quite clear on one thing though.... why the in the world are you searching for and finding minor issues with the game and suggesting improvements before you even have it?!?

Man... you got the bug already and don't even have the game yet. :lol: Hope you enjoy it when you do get it. :)


-Weasel
 
The AI does it.
 
The AI saves promotions and quick heals his units using them at the front?

I don't have as much of a problem with 'battle experience healing', the issue is more for the units that come out of production with 2 or 3 levels under their belt.
 
Saving promotion is not really an exploit as it is a tactic, considering the fact that it was encouraged by not only beta testers, but by prominent developers who post on these web-boards. It's also one of the hints that are shown during the lenard nimoy introduction.

The fact that you complain about it, stating that the AI never heals itself using the battle promotion, is ludicrous. It does. If you played the game, you'd know that.

Please do not complain about a game you've never played.

The meager healing you get from 2-3 promotions will rarely save a unit that is critically injured, unless it's going up against an inferior unit. In which case, kudos to you for saving a high XP unit without the use of a second unit for defense.
 
Chill out man.

If you read carefully the first post you would see that I posed the exact question you answered for me. I admit to not having played the game, but from reading several SGs where I saw this tactic used I wanted to clarify whether or not the AI was doing it as well.

Furthermore, whether or not the AI is doing it, I still think it is a poor design. And 3 promotions is 87.5% healing if I understand the SGs correctly, hardly 'meager'.

I may withdraw my objection to cheese as it appears the AI is also using the same tactic, but I still object to this game mechanism on the grounds that the AI is still rather unlikely to get it right. Whomever encouraged it is completely beside the point, that its in the game is the fact. One which I am questioning, if you like the tactic fine, no need to be snippy about it.
 
In the midst of waiting to heal your unit, you are passing up on.

A 30% strength bonus from Combat I -> Combat II -> Combat III

A 75% {I think?} enemy strength reduction from City Raider I -> City Raider II -> City Raider III

Those are pretty huge numbers, which could prevent more damage than you'd heal.

The real trick is to save one promotion before you head into battle. If you see an elephant, toss in "Formation", which is a +25% against mounted units.

If you see a couple macemen, toss in "Shock", which is a +25% against Melee.

It's a gamble sometimes, but for me it usually pays off. The healing is inconsequential most of the time. Usually done after the battle is already won.
 
"It's a gamble sometimes, but for me it usually pays off. The healing is inconsequential most of the time. Usually done after the battle is already won."

Read the Cuban SG if you think its inconsequential. I think it is brilliant tactics used by Sirian and Sulla, but I also think that the game mechanic in question is not a good one.

Essentially once you have some defender units just keep your fresh units underneath them until you have to make the choice of what you need them for. Obviously the human is going to be better at this than the AI, which is the main reason I think it levels the playing field to force the decision to occur at an earlier point and then deploy those units as needed, rather than not having to make the choice until later.

The healing thing is more of a minor nit to me and falls more in the 'unrealistic' catagory, though that is not necessarilly the best arguement against its inclusion in the game.
 
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