Raw is War?
Soul Reaper
Another thing with Numidian Mercenaries is that you don't need to upgrade to pikemen saving you alot of money.
The Carthaginians = greatest ancient age civilization in the game.
- Thread starter Dantius
- Start date
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
I agree with this. The Vikings also are expansionistic, so you want to play them on a pangea map.
It sucks anyway I guess...
planetfall
Emperor
Anyone played with gallic swordsman? It sounds like a weak knight that would be available early in the game.
== PF
== PF
Sim_One
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2002
- Messages
- 1,073
What's with this rave about the Numidian Infantry? Like the Musketeer, a defense unit with an extra offense is next to useless. Also keep in mind that should the Romans get iron, Numidian Infantries become completely useless. Legionairres are 3.3.1 and cost 30 shields, whereas the Num Inf is 2.3.1 with the same cost. So after ironworking, which unit would you rather have?
jack merchant
Internationalist
heh, I was just thinking about posting that the Numidian mercenary in all likelihood holds back Carthaginian expansion rather than support it, as you must build them to defend your cities, whereas otherwise you would build the quicker to produce spearman. Of course being industrious helps there though
I'd rather agree that the Sipahi may be more unbalancing, particularly if they trigger your golden age. Beeline to Military Tradition and most of the world will be yours even before infantry comes along.
I'd rather agree that the Sipahi may be more unbalancing, particularly if they trigger your golden age. Beeline to Military Tradition and most of the world will be yours even before infantry comes along.
Aggie
Deity
I agree with you complete. However, I prefer the Sipahi
The fact that Carthage cannot make regular spearmen is definitely a disadvantage early on, IMHO, but they are still my new favorite civ. I love the Mercs as well as they have several distinct advantages...
- Can be made very early in the game. All you need is Bronze Working, no time is needed to link up to any resources.
- Remains a useful unit for a very long time. It is not until the Mustketman that the Merc becomes obsolete... that's a long time. Even then the Musketman is only +1 defense which means the Merc is not too bad if you are desperate.
- The 2 attack is perfect for pushing back barbarians and enemy archers.
- No resources required. This allows you to still wage war without iron or horses allowing you to capture those resources from others to make up for a bad starting location. If you still can't secure iron at least you can hang tough until Mustketmen and hope for saltpeter.
- Perfect upgrade path. Since the Merc follows the Spearman upgrade path you can use the same units all the way from Mercs to Mech Infantry. This is in contrast to the Legionaire which ultimately ends up as a Guerilla.
I really fell in love with the Merc right away, maybe just because he just makes me feel safe in the Ancient age. =) The Merc does have disadvantages though like mentioned above.. you can't make the less costly Spearman and the early Great Age. I don't know if they are the best civ in the Ancient age, but its the best civ for me in all ages.
- Can be made very early in the game. All you need is Bronze Working, no time is needed to link up to any resources.
- Remains a useful unit for a very long time. It is not until the Mustketman that the Merc becomes obsolete... that's a long time. Even then the Musketman is only +1 defense which means the Merc is not too bad if you are desperate.
- The 2 attack is perfect for pushing back barbarians and enemy archers.
- No resources required. This allows you to still wage war without iron or horses allowing you to capture those resources from others to make up for a bad starting location. If you still can't secure iron at least you can hang tough until Mustketmen and hope for saltpeter.
- Perfect upgrade path. Since the Merc follows the Spearman upgrade path you can use the same units all the way from Mercs to Mech Infantry. This is in contrast to the Legionaire which ultimately ends up as a Guerilla.
I really fell in love with the Merc right away, maybe just because he just makes me feel safe in the Ancient age. =) The Merc does have disadvantages though like mentioned above.. you can't make the less costly Spearman and the early Great Age. I don't know if they are the best civ in the Ancient age, but its the best civ for me in all ages.
Nothing becomes obsolete faster than Man-O-War, they are dead in the water before you finished building the first one! 
Normally you have no use for them anyway. I am going to have to stick with my previous argument that UU should be linked with geographic region/experience/resources instead of just a name.
Normally you have no use for them anyway. I am going to have to stick with my previous argument that UU should be linked with geographic region/experience/resources instead of just a name.
You guys are over-rating the Numidian Mercenary. Sure, it is a nice unit because it is powerful and is available after only one technology. And it does significantly beat the spearman. But it is not an attack unit. The extra attack point is meaningless since the very next tech will get you Swordsmen with an attack of three. If you don't have Iron available, give up. Knights require Iron (along with horses). Without Iron you'd be unable to attack anyone unless using horsemen.
Furthermore, if we're looking for something that can be used early, why not try for the Babylonian Bowman? They have attack and defense of two each, but are available after Warrior Code and cost only 20 instead of the NM's 30. This is significant because they can be built so quickly. Imagine sending forty Bowmen against forty spearmen. You'd lose some, but they are easily replaced and you'd win some as well.
The Babs are also religious, which is my favorite trait. Imagine you're a democracy at war and the people begin their tedious war weariness. Just change governments to Communism until the war is over. Without the religious trait there is a chance that you'll lose all production for up to seven turns until the people are ready to change. Personally, I feel that the war weariness happens too quickly, but that is for another thread.
Me? I play the Romans the most often. The only differences between the Legions and the Knights are an added offense and move. While acknowledging that the extra move is important, they cost 70 to the Legion's 30. I still build quite a few knights, probably half legion and half knights until the Cavalry are available.
Furthermore, if we're looking for something that can be used early, why not try for the Babylonian Bowman? They have attack and defense of two each, but are available after Warrior Code and cost only 20 instead of the NM's 30. This is significant because they can be built so quickly. Imagine sending forty Bowmen against forty spearmen. You'd lose some, but they are easily replaced and you'd win some as well.
The Babs are also religious, which is my favorite trait. Imagine you're a democracy at war and the people begin their tedious war weariness. Just change governments to Communism until the war is over. Without the religious trait there is a chance that you'll lose all production for up to seven turns until the people are ready to change. Personally, I feel that the war weariness happens too quickly, but that is for another thread.
Me? I play the Romans the most often. The only differences between the Legions and the Knights are an added offense and move. While acknowledging that the extra move is important, they cost 70 to the Legion's 30. I still build quite a few knights, probably half legion and half knights until the Cavalry are available.
Aggie
Deity
But you ARE able to defend with Numidian Mercenary
. So without iron and horses, just choose the builder strategy and prepare for war later, in the industrial age.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
Never give up. That is half the fun of the game, not knowing what comes next - what you may need to react to. I agree that the no-resources aspect of the NM is great, I just prefer the Hoplite (also no-resource). But all-in-all the Carthaginian civ is a great one.
Of the new UU's, the Gallic Swordsman are awesome speedy fighters; I haven't had too much success with Sipahis (RNG wasn't on my side in those games I guess); the Keshiks are good but not great and the Numidians are pretty solid, but can still succumb to a couple of War Chariots pretty quickly.
What I don't hear about very much are the Ansar Warriors. Has anyone have any experience with them? Looking at their stats, I guess they're just cheaper Riders with 1 less def. point.
PS. Sultan - CIv3 PWY?? Does that stand for "Play with yourself"? I like it! =)
What I don't hear about very much are the Ansar Warriors. Has anyone have any experience with them? Looking at their stats, I guess they're just cheaper Riders with 1 less def. point.
PS. Sultan - CIv3 PWY?? Does that stand for "Play with yourself"? I like it! =)
wilbill
That Old Time Religion
In the hands of the human player, I think you're right. I've thought for some time that France was the "old" civ that gave me the biggest advantage - I can deal with a crummy UU better than the AI does. And commercial/industrious is probably about equal to religious/industrious as the strongest combination of traits.
Only problem with the Carthaginians is that you tend to get very early GA. I've held it off to very early Middle Ages before, but it's hard to go any later than that unless you play an extremely peaceful game. I consider that a small price to pay for the advantages you get, though.
Mojotronica
Expect Irony.
Oddly the Carthaginians almost never come out on top when played by the AI. I play against them quite a bit, and I can't remember a time when they dominated the Earth. The Egyptians, the Persians, the Romans -- they've tended to do best when played by the AI in my games... The Carthaginians always seem to hover around average.
My best friend plays Carthage all the time in hotseat games, and it's a great civ. The UU is nice, and their traits make for some fantastic research rates. Bushwhack a unit at the dawn of the middle ages, and poof...golden age your way right into the majority of the middle age wonders.
I initially tried the Ottomans, and I too love the Sipahi. First time I used them, I eliminated the Americans and Celts from my continent within about 15 turns, and lost 2 units doing it. The downside I found to the Sipahi is that by the time you get them, even if you beeline for military tradition, once you're done fighting, most civs have converted to democracy. And when you finally get ready to transition you're often so large that you're looking at an 8 turn anarchy. I found this to be crippling enough that I have gone back to playing Egypt or China. (I'm addicted to Industrious civs) I sure do love the Sipahi, but the time when it appears is just too crucial to be in a long war.
I initially tried the Ottomans, and I too love the Sipahi. First time I used them, I eliminated the Americans and Celts from my continent within about 15 turns, and lost 2 units doing it. The downside I found to the Sipahi is that by the time you get them, even if you beeline for military tradition, once you're done fighting, most civs have converted to democracy. And when you finally get ready to transition you're often so large that you're looking at an 8 turn anarchy. I found this to be crippling enough that I have gone back to playing Egypt or China. (I'm addicted to Industrious civs) I sure do love the Sipahi, but the time when it appears is just too crucial to be in a long war.
Carbon_Copy
Elemental
Darius: We just got done playing a Succession Game on the SG forum where we modded the game to give every civ every unique unit and none of them triggered Golden Ages. You want to know what we built the most of, given the option of building every single UU?
Ancient Age:
-Hoplites
-Immortals
Middle Ages:
-Ansar Warriors
-Berserks
-Sipahi
And the game ended before Panzers.
Ansars are probably the most under-rated unit of the new ones (and the Numidian the most over-rated, IMO). You use knights much more often on attack then on defense to begin with, so the -1 defense is a small price to pay for the third move (HUGE bonus), no iron required, and -10 shield cost. The games I've played as Carthage I found that those Numidians were holding me back more than anything, it takes forever to build them when you first get bronze working so I was either sending settlers out without escorts and giving cities warrior garrisons until I could afford the shield cost of Numidians later. I'd much rather take Greek Hoplites over NuMe's any time, even though I like Carthage's traits better. Sure you don't have to upgrade Numidians to Pikemen later, but that's because you've been building pikemen at the full shield cost, and for the number of shields you sink into those turkeys you could have 1.5x the number of hoplites.
Ancient Age:
-Hoplites
-Immortals
Middle Ages:
-Ansar Warriors
-Berserks
-Sipahi
And the game ended before Panzers.
Ansars are probably the most under-rated unit of the new ones (and the Numidian the most over-rated, IMO). You use knights much more often on attack then on defense to begin with, so the -1 defense is a small price to pay for the third move (HUGE bonus), no iron required, and -10 shield cost. The games I've played as Carthage I found that those Numidians were holding me back more than anything, it takes forever to build them when you first get bronze working so I was either sending settlers out without escorts and giving cities warrior garrisons until I could afford the shield cost of Numidians later. I'd much rather take Greek Hoplites over NuMe's any time, even though I like Carthage's traits better. Sure you don't have to upgrade Numidians to Pikemen later, but that's because you've been building pikemen at the full shield cost, and for the number of shields you sink into those turkeys you could have 1.5x the number of hoplites.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
After Hoplites and Sipahi, my 2nd faves are Ansar and Zerks. Both of these increase the logisitical advantage that the human player already has. The three movement for the Zerk is huge, making it much easier to mass troops outside cultural borders before making the attack, which seems to confuse the AI a bit. Similar for the Zerk, the AI is not expecting an amphibious assault.
I've only played as Persia once, very early on. I think I was playing my emperor-test game. I didn't even get to use the Hoplites so I cannot comment on that, although I hate having to face them in the ancient era.
I've only played as Persia once, very early on. I think I was playing my emperor-test game. I didn't even get to use the Hoplites so I cannot comment on that, although I hate having to face them in the ancient era.
