The Chieftains Plan

[dutchfire]

We are now in an interesting situation, with potential threats on three sides, and an economy that is (and has been for some time) apparently on the brink of collapse. Now, what are we going to do about that?

Civics
We have recently acquired Banking, so it's rather obvious that we should adopt Mercantilism now. It's a killer civic, especially in combination with representation.
Now there has been talk about adopting Vassalage. I don't think that's a good idea though. It has several disadvantages. First adopting Vassalage will increase the revolution time by one turn. So that's an entire turn without any production or research. Second, we'll miss out on the Bureaucracy bonus in NoneOfTheAbove, one of our strongest cities. I am hoping to build the Statue of Liberty there later (you'll hear about that later ), and any production bonus we can get is very important when building that expensive wonder. Third, the advantage of adopting Vassalage is relatively small, it will make our troops slightly more experienced, but that doesn't matter much. The way to win battles in is to scratch to main defender first, deal collateral and then mop up the cities with macemen. So we don't really need Vassalage for that. The economical advantage of Vassalage is also to small to warrant the extra anarchy.

Techs
I was thinking about Education, Philosophy, Liberalism, Nationalism (hopefully as a free tech), Constitution, Democracy. Democracy and Liberalism will give us the last powerful civics, and we'll be ready to make the last civic change of the game. Democracy also gives us the Statue of Liberty, which has the same benefit as Mercantilism, namely a free specialist in every city. The synergy between that wonder and Mercantilism is obvious. Another advantage of this path is that the AI is not likely to research these techs early, contrary to techs like Literature and Optics. So when we meet the other continent, we'll be able to trade our techs for their techs, and get an even bigger advantage over Bismarck and Julius.

Military
We should of course reinforce Pisae quickly. We should also move 1 more axeman next to Stuttgart. On the second turn of the next TC, we should attack Stuttgart, defended by a lonely Longbowman, with our two axes and our Keshik. We should pillage the German source of iron near Tartar too. Then it's time to make peace with them, hopefully getting some techs/gold. We should send some macemen to knock out the barbarian city, and raze it (it's location is rather bad). The rest of our forces should reinforce the Roman border. We should also build about three galleys in the Paris region. Then we can declare war, kill the Roman galleys near Paris. We can attack the new Roman city near Pisae too, and raze that too. We should merely defend Cumae from Roman attacks to drain their army, and then we should counterattack them in Hamburg. That city has the Taoist shrine and iron and is therefor a good target.

City Builds
We need three missionaries to "confuse" our new cities, including Stuttgart. We also need a lot of banks, many cities can produce up to 6 gold more if they have a bank. We should also start the Forbidden Palace in Munich immediately. We can have it finished in 13 turns, and that will be great for our economy.

I am looking forward to your alternatives, suggestions, critique and questions.

 

[Provolution]

We are now in an interesting situation, with potential threats on three sides, and an economy that is (and has been for some time) apparently on the brink of collapse. Now, what are we going to do about that?

Civics
We have recently acquired Banking, so it's rather obvious that we should adopt Mercantilism now. It's a killer civic, especially in combination with representation.
Now there has been talk about adopting Vassalage. I don't think that's a good idea though. It has several disadvantages. First adopting Vassalage will increase the revolution time by one turn. So that's an entire turn without any production or research. Second, we'll miss out on the Bureaucracy bonus in NoneOfTheAbove, one of our strongest cities. I am hoping to build the Statue of Liberty there later (you'll hear about that later ), and any production bonus we can get is very important when building that expensive wonder. Third, the advantage of adopting Vassalage is relatively small, it will make our troops slightly more experienced, but that doesn't matter much. The way to win battles in is to scratch to main defender first, deal collateral and then mop up the cities with macemen. So we don't really need Vassalage for that. The economical advantage of Vassalage is also to small to warrant the extra anarchy.

Obviously there is disagreement over Vassalage vs. Bureaucracy, as there were with Serfdom vs. Tribalism and Paganism vs. Organized Religion. We now see we build our grocers, markets, banks and other commerce improvements building 25 % faster and we see our workers building neglected resource improvements they could not handle before the change. Our economy is in tatters because of previous policies, and that is behind us now.

I fully endorse Representation and Mercantilism, but this civics combination has little or nothing to do with the choice of Bureaucracy and Vassalage.
These options should not be confused just for reselling old Bureaucracy.
I see a very hoping and emotional way for arguing against vassalage. A full promotion for each unit is here belittled as "slightly more experienced", the economic gains by having 16 free upkeep units throughout the war is written off as "too small to warrant the extra anarchy". "The extra anarchy" in itself is overexaggerated to be "an entire turn". What is an entire turn? Couldn't you just say "a turn"? Now you are overselling heavily here, and making the anarchy turn seem like the end of the world.

My idea was this, to mass produce all the units we need in a few selected military cities during Vassalage, and make sure we have enough and good enough troops to kill off not only besieged units, but also stacks of units moving about and stray units moving about. All these skirmishes and minor battles also do count. So look away from the emotional wording Dutchfire, the wording of exaggeration and belittlement, and pick up the real figures. And another sordid salesman trick I see is the use of the future Statue of Liberty build to be built in NOTA as a means to deter citizens from supporting vassalage. If you just read up the numbers I have given in a recent post, you will see that having vassalage throughout the war period makes sense, especially as the other civilizations may discover us any time soon.

Selecting Bureaucracy and fixating growth on NOTA, also means deselecting the cities that have to produce units in place of buildings in order to keep our expanding borders safe and to win our battles. We have the same problem real life in Russia, you see Moscow is a very rich city, but the remainder is quite poor. If the capital city drains too much of the resources in an Empire like this, other cities will suffer. In my opinion, NOTA stands quite well on its own legs, and with both stone and marble, we can build anything there.

Finally, I would say that Vassalage should be in place till there are only 3-4 enemy cities left on the continent, then we should change to another civic.

Techs
I was thinking about Education, Philosophy, Liberalism, Nationalism (hopefully as a free tech), Constitution, Democracy. Democracy and Liberalism will give us the last powerful civics, and we'll be ready to make the last civic change of the game. Democracy also gives us the Statue of Liberty, which has the same benefit as Mercantilism, namely a free specialist in every city. The synergy between that wonder and Mercantilism is obvious. Another advantage of this path is that the AI is not likely to research these techs early, contrary to techs like Literature and Optics. So when we meet the other continent, we'll be able to trade our techs for their techs, and get an even bigger advantage over Bismarck and Julius.

We definitively have to develop the naval civics now, as Conroe and others have pointed out, and we need to conclude this war in order to focus more wholeheartedly on the more peaceful civics you mention.

Military
We should of course reinforce Pisae quickly. We should also move 1 more axeman next to Stuttgart. On the second turn of the next TC, we should attack Stuttgart, defended by a lonely Longbowman, with our two axes and our Keshik. We should pillage the German source of iron near Tartar too. Then it's time to make peace with them, hopefully getting some techs/gold. We should send some macemen to knock out the barbarian city, and raze it (it's location is rather bad). The rest of our forces should reinforce the Roman border. We should also build about three galleys in the Paris region. Then we can declare war, kill the Roman galleys near Paris. We can attack the new Roman city near Pisae too, and raze that too. We should merely defend Cumae from Roman attacks to drain their army, and then we should counterattack them in Hamburg. That city has the Taoist shrine and iron and is therefor a good target.

Pisae will be reinforced as you see in tentative instructions. Stuttgart will get all three Axemen plus the Chariot, then attack Stuttgart, I am not taking any risks there. I plan on using the same axemen for taking the barbarian city and raze it. About reinforcing the Roman-German border.... I would like Heroic Epic there (Munich would be good) to produce units on a continuous scale for the Northern Wars. This is also why I would like Vassalage, so that we can pump out 2-3 good units per turn where the war takes place, with double as many promotions as the enemy. Not forget both Bismarck and Caesar got military units bonuses like we do, which means we need to win the arms race.
Cumae is already well defended with spearman and anti-cavalry maceman and keshiks. Tartar will be pillaged as you see in tentative instructions.
About counterattack Hamburg... This is why I wanted to take Dortmund, to close that area and move onto Hamburg from that side. I think we also need to take Antium, which is a good city, the idea is to shorten the border so we have less patrolling and improvizations to worry about.

The ineptitude to build workers and connect cities with roads and attach the most vital resources by same workers have made it hard to reinforce our troops with new units. We have one lightning beacon of a capital, and the remainder of the cities are more or less shanty-towns. We need to balance the cities out a bit.

City Builds
We need three missionaries to "confuse" our new cities, including Stuttgart. We also need a lot of banks, many cities can produce up to 6 gold more if they have a bank. We should also start the Forbidden Palace in Munich immediately. We can have it finished in 13 turns, and that will be great for our economy.

I am looking forward to your alternatives, suggestions, critique and questions. [/QUOTE]

I agree on Missionaries, but I think Stuttgart should be razed, it messes up the good location you originally picked for the Eastern City, the one which was delayed because someone wanted to keep that settler idle.
Forbidden Palace should be in Berlin, where it has a bigger impact, in which I agree with Daveshack and several others. Culture is part of that picture.

We need Literature as next research objective and we need to build Heroic Epic in preparation for the next Roman War. We also need Vassalage to get the quality units we want and to shave off some upkeep.
Just look up the numbers and don't get emotional about it. Insurance cost some, but it is worth it.

Hopefully, you read the numbers here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=231308

This means that 2 XP added to the 4 XP from Barracks, tips the unit over the promotion limit. A Maceman would thus have two promotions, for example city raider and combat, plus some xp.

 

[HUSch]

Civics
We have recently acquired Banking, so it's rather obvious that we should adopt Mercantilism now. It's a killer civic, especially in combination with representation.
Now there has been talk about adopting Vassalage. I don't think that's a good idea though. It has several disadvantages. First adopting Vassalage will increase the revolution time by one turn. So that's an entire turn without any production or research. Second, we'll miss out on the Bureaucracy bonus in NoneOfTheAbove, one of our strongest cities. I am hoping to build the Statue of Liberty there later (you'll hear about that later ), and any production bonus we can get is very important when building that expensive wonder. Third, the advantage of adopting Vassalage is relatively small, it will make our troops slightly more experienced, but that doesn't matter much. The way to win battles in is to scratch to main defender first, deal collateral and then mop up the cities with macemen. So we don't really need Vassalage for that. The economical advantage of Vassalage is also to small to warrant the extra anarchy.

in my opinion there is only 1 turn anarchy with civic-change to mercantilism and vassalage, that is the main purpose to make both changes at the same time. I'm also against vassalage.

 

[Methos]

in my opinion there is only 1 turn anarchy with civic-change to mercantilism and vassalage,

Are you saying that it is your opinion it is only one turn, or that you checked the save and are telling us? I can't see the Chieftain saying it'll be two turns if he hasn't checked the save to make sure. After his update to the State of the Empire thread, I know for a fact he has checked the save.

Again, is it your opinion, or did you check the save?

Edit: Found this statement in another thread...

I myself are uncertain, but prefer bureau in my games. Here i've not enough information.

I'm guessing it is his opinion than.

Disclaimer: I have no problem with people posting their opinions, that's the fun of this game, but if you're going to discuss numbers, please do so using the save. If you don't have the save or can't look at it, please state so in your posts. I hate for an argument to start due to a misunderstanding lol: another aspect of this demogame!).

 

[Conroe]

We need Literature as next research objective and we need to build Heroic Epic in preparation for the next Roman War. We also need Vassalage to get the quality units we want and to shave off some upkeep.
Just look up the numbers and don't get emotional about it. Insurance cost some, but it is worth it.

After taking a look at the intel photos that Methos posted in the turn thread, I counted 4 longbows, 2 axes, and a spear. And in order to take on this force, we NEED to have the Heroic Epic and Vassalage? And only then can the job get done in 30 turns? I still believe that you are overestimating the capabilities of the AI.

We definitively have to develop the naval civics now, as Conroe and others have pointed out,

It is true that I have been pounding the table for quite a while now on the urgency of learning Compass and Optics. My fear has always been that the other continent would become too advanced, leaving little or no trading opportunities. And then we have Methos' screenshot:

This is NOT a good sign. This IS what happens when you leave the AI in isolation. They end up peacefully coexisting and stay in "builder" mode.

The "realities of war", to borrow Provolution's phrase, are that the wars are taking waaaaay too long. Frankly, it is time to start thinking about going in a new direction. By that I mean forget about the Roman War. The economy needs to be put into "builder" mode PDQ. As for the German war, it would be nice to finish him off. Based upon reading Methos' turn report (I have not looked at a save BTW), it should be possible. The priority, though, needs to be infrastructure. The REAL threat is on the other continent!

As for techs, I think Compass and Optics are no longer a priority. It is too late. Unfortunately, I am out of ideas. But Dutchfire's idea of chasing Liberalism and going for Democracy does seem sound and reasonable. I do not have high hopes for Liberalism, though. I would thus forego Liberalism should it fall to the AI.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that with the exception of declaring on Rome, I fully endorse Dutchfire's plan. The one thing that Dutchfire's plan doesn't mention, though alluded to, is the use of Great Scientists. I strongly suggest that scientists be immediately hired so that a GS (or two) can be popped. Philosophy needs to be lightbulbed and half of Education can also be acquired from the lightbulb. I would also suggest re-evaluating Caste System, to see if there are a couple of high-food cities that would warrant the extra turn of anarchy.

 

[Provolution]

After taking a look at the intel photos that Methos posted in the turn thread, I counted 4 longbows, 2 axes, and a spear. And in order to take on this force, we NEED to have the Heroic Epic and Vassalage? And only then can the job get done in 30 turns? I still believe that you are overestimating the capabilities of the AI.

I am overestimating the capabilities of the constituency, it seems. The reason the war is going this slow, is that I had to wait for courthouses to be completed, and by then, war-weariness kicks in. The reason these wars take time, are that several roads are not built, we have a tattered economy catching up, too few workers out there and there seems to be an unwillingness to add new cities out of civics fears, and an unwillingness to raze some cities. Heroic Epic and Vassalage are to be built/used for a brief duration to be used for the entire game, be it German, Rome, Barbs and then some. I am going to post an article on the matter. The advantage with vassalage in combination with Aggressive trait is not the 2 xp in itself, or the concept of a single promotion more, as someone put it to make the solution seem smaller than it is.

The real magic comes when we are allowed to build melee units starting out with Combat 1, upon which we can add Shock, Cover, Pinch and Formation. Since we know we are facing mounted and cover units (Rome) and melee and cover units (Germany), we know what stacks we need to send where.
A cover/combat maceman would have an effective strength of 8 X 1.35 against Longbowmen, for example. If the unit is built in a barracks, we can even add a third promotion with Vassalage for Maceman. With a Combat, Cover, City Raider combination we can do miracles in assaulting cities, for a low cost in hammers. For this particular role unit (and a likely one, the odds are 8 X 1.6 against longbowmen defending cities). This is a staggering strength of 12.8, much more than the potential of a green knight.
This is the type of unit that should be built in a period of time.

It is true that I have been pounding the table for quite a while now on the urgency of learning Compass and Optics. My fear has always been that the other continent would become too advanced, leaving little or no trading opportunities. And then we have Methos' screenshot:

Yes, us being below the other continents three means that they will see us either this turnchat or next turnchat, so we can prepare the Foreign Office already.

This is NOT a good sign. This IS what happens when you leave the AI in isolation. They end up peacefully coexisting and stay in "builder" mode.

Agreed

The "realities of war", to borrow Provolution's phrase, are that the wars are taking waaaaay too long. Frankly, it is time to start thinking about going in a new direction. By that I mean forget about the Roman War. The economy needs to be put into "builder" mode PDQ. As for the German war, it would be nice to finish him off. Based upon reading Methos' turn report (I have not looked at a save BTW), it should be possible. The priority, though, needs to be infrastructure. The REAL threat is on the other continent!

I could not agree more, we should only deal with Germany until he is gone, then turn on the Romans, we sure knew they would settle new cities, including the new upcoming, and the one north of Rome. It was a vacant spot, and our no-settlement-policy meant it had to be settled. If someone did not sort of anticipate that, and want to declare war for that oversight, I am not in their line of thinking. If Conroes line win through, we need neither Vassalage or Heroic Epic, we should then go along with Dutchfires more peacetime civics, and just build as fast as we can with hell on our tails.

We still need to finish up our enemies, even though a short German break would be nice. Leave the Romans for now.

As for techs, I think Compass and Optics are no longer a priority. It is too late. Unfortunately, I am out of ideas. But Dutchfire's idea of chasing Liberalism and going for Democracy does seem sound and reasonable. I do not have high hopes for Liberalism, though. I would thus forego Liberalism should it fall to the AI.

This is another reason why the German War must go on to Essen at least, we need Compass for free, and to quickly snatch Optics and send out caravels.
We need more exploring and mapping to know what we are doing. We surely should go the naval and educational route.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that with the exception of declaring on Rome, I fully endorse Dutchfire's plan. The one thing that Dutchfire's plan doesn't mention, though alluded to, is the use of Great Scientists. I strongly suggest that scientists be immediately hired so that a GS (or two) can be popped. Philosophy needs to be lightbulbed and half of Education can also be acquired from the lightbulb. I would also suggest re-evaluating Caste System, to see if there are a couple of high-food cities that would warrant the extra turn of anarchy.

I think we need serfdom for some time, due to limited infrastructure, forest, jungles, unused resources and so on.

 

[Provolution]

If we are to start building Statue of Liberty next turnchat (in 17 turns), I am not to further support Vassalage, since another specialist per city would really turn the game, as we own so many cities. This is a great superpower civic.

I can see that now. That said, I think we should finish off the Germans first, and not switch enemies for a while. They build that city, big deal, let us outculture it.

 

[fed1943]

HE is an excellent build, for warmongers and builders.

It does not make better units, but make them faster; so, assuming it is built in
the strongest hammers city, liberates several cities from military duties.

It shall be a great helper to economy.

Best regards,

 

[dutchfire]

If we are to start building Statue of Liberty next turnchat (in 17 turns), I am not to further support Vassalage, since another specialist per city would really turn the game, as we own so many cities. This is a great superpower civic.

I can see that now. That said, I think we should finish off the Germans first, and not switch enemies for a while. They build that city, big deal, let us outculture it.

Ehm, the Statue of Liberty can be built when we have Democracy, we'll need about 12000 beakers to reach Liberalism-Democracy. That should be done in 60 turns tops. The great thing is that that's just enough time to deal with the Romans and Germans.

Now, about the timing of the proposed Roman war. We have recently finished Banking, and I strongly suggest to the governors that we should build banks now. But in about two turns of building them, some cities, like NotA, can finish thier bank. Then they can start building military units. After about ten turns, with all our units in place on the Roman border, we can attack Rome. Rome currently has 2 shrines, 1 in Hamburg, on their border, and 1 in Rome. Capturing Hamburg, and spreading Taoism through all our cities will increase our income by quite a lot actually.

 

[Provolution]

Yes, we need a military city producer up there to liberate some cities.

 

[Provolution]

Ehm, the Statue of Liberty can be built when we have Democracy, we'll need about 12000 beakers to reach Liberalism-Democracy. That should be done in 60 turns tops. The great thing is that that's just enough time to deal with the Romans and Germans.

Now, about the timing of the proposed Roman war. We have recently finished Banking, and I strongly suggest to the governors that we should build banks now. But in about two turns of building them, some cities, like NotA, can finish thier bank. Then they can start building military units. After about ten turns, with all our units in place on the Roman border, we can attack Rome. Rome currently has 2 shrines, 1 in Hamburg, on their border, and 1 in Rome. Capturing Hamburg, and spreading Taoism through all our cities will increase our income by quite a lot actually.

Give me Heroic Epic up there then, in either Berlin or Munich, whichever is fastest, since we need to produce units where the enemy is. We cannot go on sending catapults from Riversight up to the front, as it takes 5-6 turns each way. This is also why I want Southern Germany (Stutgart-Essen) to patch up our nation, reduce our border and improve logistics. It takes a turnchat to take Stuttgart, Essen and Barb City, but then we own the south.

About your 60 turns for Statue of Liberty to be begun... I think that fact actually makes it clear we can have Vassalage for a limited time, we can just move back to Bureaucracy and a couple of the best Civics around then.

 

[dutchfire]

Give me Heroic Epic up there then, in either Berlin or Munich, whichever is fastest, since we need to produce units where the enemy is. We cannot go on sending catapults from Riversight up to the front, as it takes 5-6 turns each way. This is also why I want Southern Germany (Stutgart-Essen) to patch up our nation, reduce our border and improve logistics.

It doesn't matter where you're producing your military units in this case! If we let one city build a steady stream of units, the only thing that is dependant of the distance of that city to the front is the arrival of the first unit. As it'll take more than 5 turns before we'll declare war on Rome anyway, having the Epic closer to the front is pretty much useless. Especially as the border cities have many more important builds, like temples, courthouses, markets, libraries, grocers, granaries and whatmore.

 

[Provolution]

I do not want a steady stream of cannon fodder, I want good units to arrive at the front fast, we can make ONE northern city a specialist military city, is that too much to ask ? It really does matter. And who said we will declare war on Rome in about 5 turns? We are still to poll all of this you know.

Several of the citizens want the HE next to the front.

Also consider the other DPs, imagine all the boring moves?

Also, HE is a good border build with culture and high military production. Produce where the customers are!

 

[dutchfire]

I do not want a steady stream of cannon fodder,

Why not, it's easily the best way to win wars.

I want good units to arrive at the front fast, we can make ONE northern city a specialist military city, is that too much to ask ? It really does matter. And who said we will declare war on Rome in about 5 turns? We are still to poll all of this you know.

The only war I could imagine we'd be fighting and that would need considerable military production is a war against Rome. And declaring faster than 5 turns would be plain stupid IMO.

Several of the citizens want the HE next to the front.

Also consider the other DPs, imagine all the boring moves?

"Go to" orders prevent that work.

Also, HE is a good border build with culture and high military production.

The culture/hammer pay-off from the HE is actually ridiculously low. If you want culture, it's better to produce libraries, temples or monastries.

Produce where the customers are!

That quote might have been good in the 19th, or maybe even in the 20th century, but the 21th century adagium is "Produce where it's cheapest", that's why all those factories are moving to China

 

[Provolution]

And this is why China, on the other continent, is becoming the real threat, because we are neglecting it?

I smell neo-classicism when I see it I think we need to poll these options (Wonder cities for Heroic Epic), I will make it a multiple poll of preferred options, the same should be done for Forbidden Palace. This would allow us to place both wonders.

 

[Provolution]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro

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