The "cities tech cost" and it's implications

[Konsti]

It seems great. I love tall empires and used to play most of my games with this approach but on immortal difficulty level it's simply impossible to keep up on the field of science with wide empire
An interesting observation:
Wide empires:
- reduced science rate
- reduced monetary income (no river bonus + smaller trade routes per city factor than tall empires)
+ more tourism from excavations (more territory = more available digs without international issues)

Furthermore, there are some new screencaps I've found on muve.pl's facebook and it seems that there's going to be some rearrangements in cost of land improvements. All the screencaps have a lot of pointlessly spammed roads.

I played a match on Emperor as OCC, and with research agreements + leaning tower, 25% science from CS allies, great library and obviously oxford was second in overall tech count. So it is possible. maybe not second on immortal, but midfield is quite plausible. And then if you are peaceful, difference in techs is not as obvious.

 

[pilot00]

I played a match on Emperor as OCC, and with research agreements + leaning tower, 25% science from CS allies, great library and obviously oxford was second in overall tech count. So it is possible. maybe not second on immortal, but midfield is quite plausible. And then if you are peaceful, difference in techs is not as obvious.

Not as obvious though, is all the difference when the AI clicks (not literally) the launch icon and you are left hanging

 

[Martinus]

I like this change a lot. This actually makes tall empires a viable alternative to wide empires in all areas (as opposed to making wide better for science and tall for culture, as it was in vanilla/G&K).

 

[kaspergm]

Even though we haven't heard anything about this, one can always hope that they've leveled the field a bit by also reducing the National College a bit in power. It always seemed to me that NC was a bit owerpowered with its +50 % whereas Oxford College seemed a bit lacklustre with it's free technology as the only benefit. If they have tweaked this, perhaps by cutting the bonus into two parts of +25 % instead, this might have given tall a bit of a cut also, to make them not completely outshine wide with regards to science.

While on that topic, I would also love to see OU provide a Great Scientist instead of the free tech ... I'm not sure if that would be a nerf or a boost, but it would seem a bit more logical to me, plus it would be more interesting, as it would give you the option of settling the scientist instead.

 

[theadder]

Even though we haven't heard anything about this, one can always hope that they've leveled the field a bit by also reducing the National College a bit in power. It always seemed to me that NC was a bit owerpowered with its +50 % whereas Oxford College seemed a bit lacklustre with it's free technology as the only benefit. If they have tweaked this, perhaps by cutting the bonus into two parts of +25 % instead, this might have given tall a bit of a cut also, to make them not completely outshine wide with regards to science.

While on that topic, I would also love to see OU provide a Great Scientist instead of the free tech ... I'm not sure if that would be a nerf or a boost, but it would seem a bit more logical to me, plus it would be more interesting, as it would give you the option of settling the scientist instead.

I'm not sure about lowering the National College, but I'd certainly like Oxford University to be a bit more useful.

 

[Ryoga]

While on that topic, I would also love to see OU provide a Great Scientist instead of the free tech ... I'm not sure if that would be a nerf or a boost, but it would seem a bit more logical to me, plus it would be more interesting, as it would give you the option of settling the scientist instead.

Oxford University comes pretty late and I heard that one guy calculated that after scientific theory it's more convenient to bulb the scientists rather than creating academies, so this looks more like a nerf to me.

The free tech can be either pretty lame or good depending on how you time it.

 

[MadDjinn]

Oxford University comes pretty late and I heard that one guy calculated that after scientific theory it's more convenient to bulb the scientists rather than creating academies, so this looks more like a nerf to me.

The free tech can be either pretty lame or good depending on how you time it.

re: settled GSs - that's a G&K based theory. In BNW it'll depend on your ideology and if the world congress has passed the culture from great people tile improvement resolution.

Ie, you can see that I'm getting 16 beakers/turn from Academies in the Portugal part of the BtM 20-2 video. Add onto that the culture output (which can be converted to tourism later) and then you'll have to rethink exactly when that GS needs to be bulbed.

Ofc, if the world congress passes the resolution to boost Gwam production, while at the same time nerfing Gsem production, then those GSs will be a bit more rare in the late game (not much, but enough to reconsider bulbing it).

As per Oxford, timing is everything. You obviously don't want to just build it randomly. But if you decide to use it to get to Industrialization faster? Free tenets await you if you have the coal/factories up fast. Grab that Archaeology tech early? you can block or grab artifacts outside of all cultured territory earlier (or prep to steal artifacts from AIs).

 

[Ryoga]

re: settled GSs - that's a G&K based theory. In BNW it'll depend on your ideology and if the world congress has passed the culture from great people tile improvement resolution.

True, it will no longer be so simple to decide what to do with a GS. This is actually a good thing, the game sounds more interesting this way.

 

[Calouste]

I like this change a lot. This actually makes tall empires a viable alternative to wide empires in all areas (as opposed to making wide better for science and tall for culture, as it was in vanilla/G&K).

I have the impression (but MadDjinn can correct me if I'm wrong), that culture is still easier with tall empires because there are some powerful culture/tourism related National Wonders like the Hermitage and the National Visitors Centre for which you need buildings in all your cities that cost quite a few hammers but have a low base yield.

 

[chazzycat]

probably a good change IMO. Wide does tend to outpace tall pretty reliably around the midgame if the wide empire can keep growing (ie religion happiness). With piety available earlier and tradition REX pretty much dead, I really think there is a good chance that piety + city spam will be overpowered without some change.

 

[adwcta]

Gameplay-wise, I don't think there's a huge effect, since if you're at the tipping point for science for settling your next city, you're already well on your way to tech leader even on Deity. That's probably why MD says it's not that noticeable. If you runaway a bit on tech, you've won the game. No need to super-run away.

This does have the WONDERFUL effect of effectively slowing down mid-late game tech speed for ALL civilizations significantly. This is great, as then end game will now last longer so we have more time to explore the ideologies, tourism, diplomacy, military units, etc. This change itself will likely make Germany/America/Japan (the late-game war units) become more powerful.

Flavor-wise, this is awful. Just plain awful. At least social policies being harder to implement over more cities is realistic. This is as bad as having a new city sending your current empire into unhappiness. What? We just won a war and added cities to our glorious military-based empire and my people are LESS happy because we succeeded? Who cares if the new guys hate their new rulers for now before we build the courthouse... ::mutters::

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Flavor-wise, this is awful. Just plain awful. At least social policies being harder to implement over more cities is realistic. This is as bad as having a new city sending your current empire into unhappiness. What? We just won a war and added cities to our glorious military-based empire and my people are LESS happy because we succeeded? Who cares if the new guys hate their new rulers for now before we build the courthouse... ::mutters::

Your people are unhappy because Their fathers, husbands, sons, and brothers are dying while suppressing some ungrateful rebels in a place far from home, and their taxes are going to buy off some corrupt puppet leader in another city.

Science is harder in a large empire because there is more bureaucracy above you, more layer of rules to wade through before you publish... on the other hand, in a small empire, you can always move one city over and publish your ideas there.
And any new technology discovery must be standardized across the empire to truly be useful... that 5% extra tech cost is going into biologists doing environmental action reports and engineers devising manufacturing standards for each of the 50 states.

 

[pilot00]

Your people are unhappy because Their fathers, husbands, sons, and brothers are dying while suppressing some ungrateful rebels in a place far from home, and their taxes are going to buy off some corrupt puppet leader in another city.

No they aren't. Like a good autocrat I have build them schools and universities, and since I am immortal and had them in place for the last three thousand years, all those generations are taught from school:

--Never to defy the will of the state.
--A soldier sacrificed for the glory of God and country is a hero.
--A city 'liberated' though resisting will need our enlightened soldiers to lead them to their new 'pure path'
--Failing to comply with the law, will result in immediate apprehension and charges of treason.
--There are no taxes, they don't own anything, everything is owned by the state and is been dispensed as the wise ruler sees fit.

Unhappiness problem solved, you effectively have a state that since day one its citizens are born to live and die by the sword. They know nothing else, they cant be unhappy.

 

[Greizer85]

No they aren't. Like a good autocrat I have build them schools and universities, and since I am immortal and had them in place for the last three thousand years, all those generations are taught from school:

--Never to defy the will of the state.
--A soldier sacrificed for the glory of God and country is a hero.
--A city 'liberated' though resisting will need our enlightened soldiers to lead them to their new 'pure path'
--Failing to comply with the law, will result in immediate apprehension and charges of treason.
--There are no taxes, they don't own anything, everything is owned by the state and is been dispensed as the wise ruler sees fit.

Unhappiness problem solved, you effectively have a state that since day one its citizens are born to live and die by the sword. They know nothing else, they cant be unhappy.

Sounds like a paradise; how much are the tickets?

 

[MadDjinn]

Unhappiness problem solved, you effectively have a state that since day one its citizens are born to live and die by the sword. They know nothing else, they cant be unhappy.

Happiness is a warm nuke bath?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

No they aren't. Like a good autocrat I have build them schools and universities, and since I am immortal and had them in place for the last three thousand years, all those generations are taught from school:

--Never to defy the will of the state.
--A soldier sacrificed for the glory of God and country is a hero.
--A city 'liberated' though resisting will need our enlightened soldiers to lead them to their new 'pure path'
--Failing to comply with the law, will result in immediate apprehension and charges of treason.
--There are no taxes, they don't own anything, everything is owned by the state and is been dispensed as the wise ruler sees fit.

Unhappiness problem solved, you effectively have a state that since day one its citizens are born to live and die by the sword. They know nothing else, they cant be unhappy.

And you know how many resources have to be diverted to all that training?

Resources that could be making them more effective soldiers (combat penalty)
Resources that could be making them better at raising their own family (growth penalty)
Resources that could be making them better workers (gold and production penalties)

Sometimes resources that are necessary to make sure that your citizens and troops can properly identify friend from foe (rebels..even city flips, as they might accidentally see other immortal leaders as no different from you, and therefore accidentally switch loyalties)

And more of those resources have to be used when you take over new territory.

Multiple things can make the training easier,
ways of distracting them (luxuries)
self-perpetuating ideas (religion)
various forms of infrastructure can be adapted to more effective use of local training resources. (buildings..sometimes with social policies)

[ps I agree that stability would be a better name]

 

[Furycrab]

Happiness is a warm nuke bath?

"Was trying to help you deal with all that unhappiness" Gandhi

 

[Browd]

[ps I agree that stability would be a better name]

Europa Universalis anyone?

 

[pilot00]

And you know how many resources have to be diverted to all that training?

Resources that could be making them more effective soldiers (combat penalty)
Resources that could be making them better at raising their own family (growth penalty)
Resources that could be making them better workers (gold and production penalties)

Sometimes resources that are necessary to make sure that your citizens and troops can properly identify friend from foe (rebels..even city flips, as they might accidentally see other immortal leaders as no different from you, and therefore accidentally switch loyalties)

And more of those resources have to be used when you take over new territory.

Multiple things can make the training easier,
ways of distracting them (luxuries)
self-perpetuating ideas (religion)
various forms of infrastructure can be adapted to more effective use of local training resources. (buildings..sometimes with social policies)

[ps I agree that stability would be a better name]

You forget: The SS regimes, North Koreas current training programs, Sparta, the Mongols and half a dozen other warrior cultures and or special forces.

As to the resources you say to me about lets talk to our minister of propaganda, he has this to comment:

"Our army is well trained and equipped. Every unit that takes to the field spends time in our training facilities for about 5 to 8 years before seeing actual combat (IN GAME: Barracks, military academies etc. 5-8 turns in production ). Our soldiers are trained from infancy to be the best at what they do (NO FAMILY- Warrior caste from the Honor tree) and they are completely dedicated to the cause. The rest of our citizens occupy the best positions (specialists/fabricators/whatnot) due to higher training and absolute loyalty to the cause. The menial tasks that are required for us to preform are done by the as of yet non citizens of our empire (AKA Slaves captured in war). But rest assured, when their tasks are complete for the day, they spend some time on our education programs. In the future they will understand the benefits of our great civilization (sic) and will be rewarded with citizenship themselves. Rest assured that with the advent of robotics propagated by our great scientists, necessity of menial tasks will be eliminated in the next half of the century (I foresee food reductions....)''.

Spokes man from the army general whatshisname had this to comment on the matter of loyalty:

''The way of our empire, is the only way for mankind to traverse forward. This has been engrained into our great civilizations psyche since the day our great leader appeared to us. He led us to become from club wielding savages, to an enlightened empire that has spread its ideology through the world. There is no corruption to our state, there is no jealousy, there is no ugliness, there is no evil. There is only a uniformity of destiny that belies our purpose: To unite the world and end all wars under a single banner. Only then will mankind truly prosper. The other leaders...They waste their time calling us warmongers and other things, yet they have yet nothing to show the world. Their nations are week, malnourished and filled with unhappy souls that care only to ephemeral pleasures to deny the reality of their everyday lives.
No there is no other way for us, the worlds corruption must come to an end. All we need is our martial code, discipline and our weapons. We will rest and enjoy ourselves only when we bring final peace to this world''.

TLDR: If you brainwash a nation day in and day out since the day they are born, there is nothing to distract them.

Also take note that you started this as how it would work inside the game and propose mechanics outside the game: There are no special resources needed for your troops in the game to preform their duty, and there is no loyalty factor. They need the maintenance costs and whatever else special it requires to produce them: Loyalty factor, no payment, No questions asked. The dream army of the insane dictator There is no need for global happiness reduction. I would say not even local (after all who asks the occupied citizens if they are happy?) but I would agree that local happiness must be reduced.

Sounds like a paradise; how much are the tickets?

Free as long you are brainwa...I mean take tuition by our dedicated Civil officers before you come to visit. We accept tourists only on certain dates and under certain conditions. Come join us and make our empire proud! Be sure to buy the tourist souvenir that plays the national anthem 24-7, a poster of our illustrious president, and the new Mk6 assault carbine replica used by our forces on the front.
*We bear no responsibility for maiming or deaths incurred by the weapons sold to tourists, and certainly not for any defections to our glorious state. By visiting our glorious empire you agree to these terms and conditions, as well whatever you will find on the assorted documents handed to you to the foreigner receiving office.

EDIT: Just read that:

Happiness is a warm nuke bath?

I had our environmentalist department head (YES we do have one, we are not heartless b...) for a comment:

'Urhm...We dont use nukes....Erhm, they hurt the planet?'

Our scientific adviser also has this to say:

'Since India threatened us to a peaceful nuclear exchange the last month, we started construction of a spaceship which will lead a portion of our people outside this planet. Once this project is completed any threats that imply use of nuclear weapons will be countered by use of the mutually assured destruction protocols'.

 

[chrisjwmartin]

AI happiness bonus nerfed? How come they're still settling cities like cancer spreading? I made minimum distance to be 6 tiles, and they still build more cities than I would ever care to conquer. (It's a pain sieging and razing ONE city, now imaging repeating that process twenty times).

My 3 boring cities are gonna encompass all these spaces, because these 3 boring cities will be built in carefully considered, strategic spots and will have a lot of expansion, and have around the same land area as your exciting 10 cities with no specialty/individuality. Do you even remember the name of your cities? Or are they just another dot on your big, red, smudge on the minimap? Twenty generic cities with no names, no differences, no lasting impressions, no point, no purpose other than being an absolute pain for someone trying to conquer you.

Wow, 6 tiles minimum distance - and I thought I was being extreme by setting it to 5! What I like about 5 is that it means there is always at least one hex's space to walk around cities without them being able to bombard you.

Love this comment, it sums up how I feel about spammers.