The Clan's Worldspell and other ideas for them

[Imuratep]

Concerning Clan of Embers I had an idea concerning their worldspell, because the majority in the forum complains about their worldspell being quite useless, because you can never maintain so many troops by the time it is useful. I know the Orcs ARE in fact quite strong, but their worldspell now is quite nonsense for me.
So my ideas are:
1. Keep the Worldspell and give the Clan about 20 free units for about 20 turns after activating for the Horde. This way you could actually use the Horde you have summoned without losing 20-40 Gold per turn
2. Change the Worldspell.
a.) The Worldspell could duplicate all non-hero (to avoid Orthus duplicates) orc-barbarians and increase the aggressiveness of the barbarians for a certain time.
b.) Or the number of orc-barbarians rests, but they all get the strong promotion and their aggressiveness is increased.
c.) Or the Barbarians are all upgraded to the strongest unit of their type, that you can build at the time you activate the worldspell and get the best weapons you have and their aggressiveness is increased.

Another idea I had would be a repeatable ritual for the Orcs that puts a certain amount of barbarian orcs into play at the city you built it. Flavorwise it would be explainable by the tribal structure of Orcs. The Clan of Embers is the biggest and mightiest tribe that persuades other tribes to lead war or better forces them into war.

 

[SwampCow]

Yeah their world spell is only really useful in first 50 to 75 turns and that is the time in the game you can least afford to use it. Only time I have ever found it useful past that is on archipelago maps where later on you can pinpoint many of the small island holds.

I like the idea of maybe they don't get a world spell but maybe a repeatable ritual to spawn barbarian orcs. Something to throw a monkey wrench into the system.

It would actually be cool if some sort of repeatable ritual could be created for everyone. Give all races a reason to try for Celestial Compass.

 

[Brokenbone]

Maybe any "For the Horde" troops you acquire could start with hidden nationality (or a similarly functioning new promotion), a bit of a double edged sword, so let me explain...

(1) Why would your AI foes necessarily recognize that, worldwide, all of a sudden some previously disorganized orcs and goblins, answer to the Clan? You may even acquire units who've already survived battles with the AI, for all you know.

(2) HN promo means even barb units will attack you. Could reflect some kind of infighting related to betraying the existing, nameless "Barbarian Leader" which not even the "Barbarian" trait could override, or if HN is the wrong promo to give, some sort of "Barbarian" promotion could be created. Keeps other Barbarian units from considering the unit a threat, but the other AI civs still treat the unit as an enemy (i.e., consider it "HN lite"). Capable of being given up via "Declare Nationality."

While FtH is kind of an economic crippler if mismanaged / used at the wrong time, I'd be a little more willing to squander a budget on a sizeable "HN" or "nearly HN" promoted group of units. With any luck, some get to home, or the safety of big stacks and whatnot.

...

Under the banner of other, non Worldspell ideas, remember how Shaman/Adepts used to be able to create barrows? Maybe give that back. Maybe also give the ability to create (call it "sponsor") Goblin Forts. Each could have a cost associated with it, anything from a handful of gold to a unit needing to sacrifice itself to get the terrain improvement. The terrain improving "spell", as it would probably implemented, could well take multiple turns if required (ie, an Adept has to stand there for 10 turns as they create a Barrow, or Rantine has to stand there 5 turns while he rallies (and pays?) enough local goblins to create a fort, who knows?)

Anyhow, just silly brainstormy ideas.

 

[marioflag]

Maybe any "For the Horde" troops you acquire could start with hidden nationality (or a similarly functioning new promotion), a bit of a double edged sword, so let me explain...

(1) Why would your AI foes necessarily recognize that, worldwide, all of a sudden some previously disorganized orcs and goblins, answer to the Clan? You may even acquire units who've already survived battles with the AI, for all you know.

(2) HN promo means even barb units will attack you. Could reflect some kind of infighting related to betraying the existing, nameless "Barbarian Leader" which not even the "Barbarian" trait could override, or if HN is the wrong promo to give, some sort of "Barbarian" promotion could be created. Keeps other Barbarian units from considering the unit a threat, but the other AI civs still treat the unit as an enemy (i.e., consider it "HN lite"). Capable of being given up via "Declare Nationality."

While FtH is kind of an economic crippler if mismanaged / used at the wrong time, I'd be a little more willing to squander a budget on a sizeable "HN" or "nearly HN" promoted group of units. With any luck, some get to home, or the safety of big stacks and whatnot.

This is an interesting idea, and in my opinion would make FtH a bit stronger.

I have thought that FtH could be also implemented differently: it is active 1/2 or 1/3 of the total of turns in a game(so it depends on game speed), and in this period you can recruit at a really small cost like 5-10 gold or even less money as much barbarian units as you want.So that it's not crippling for your economy at the beginning, because you choose what units needs to be recruited.

 

[Marnok]

I like these ideas. Just to throw my own into the mix, perhaps when the spell is cast each of your existing units gains a "horde" one-shot spell. This can be used in cities to Recruit (or whatever it is called) to gain a mass of units, or in an unimproved plot to create a lair.

So you protect those units who were around at the time until they have used up their spell... to summon a stack of orcs just when you need them, or pillage and surround an enemy city with goblin forst, ruins and barrows...

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I think the best option is to just have units provided by "for the horde!" cost no upkeep ( I mean, they DID join you for the horde, not for money ) . it's simple and it should be enough to solve the issue

 

[smusebaer]

yes for The horde for free!!!!

 

[SwordofStriker]

I think the best option is to just have units provided by "for the horde!" cost no upkeep ( I mean, they DID join you for the horde, not for money ) . it's simple and it should be enough to solve the issue

That would make the spell very powerful, which is how world spells should be. I like this idea and it would bring the Clan of Embers more on par with the Doviello in the early game.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Problem with the clan world spell, is that it, unlike the concept for most world spells, gets noticeably weaker as time goes on, because barbarian numbers dwindle, especially orc/lizard barbs. This means the time you get the most effect with the spell, is when you are economically least able to reap its benefits.

I think the idea of having units you get via "For the Horde" gain Hidden Nationality is a *Really* good one. You'd be able to pillage with them, and harass people, and still get contact. Of course, they'd kill you straight back.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

The Clan worldspell basically gives them a free version of Marco Polo's Embassy (or the Empath Guild if you prefer) that you can't lose a race to.

This use is not flavorful, but it is GOOD. I don't see it as in that dire need of a buff.

 

[Pike the Hands]

The best time to use For the Horde: Right after the Illians use Stasis. You pay no upkeep anyway while it's up and going, might as well round up a global orc posse and crack some skulls. I did this to great effect in my last game.

 

[Imuratep]

Good idea to make the troops created by For the horde free units. I want to add an idea to balance this a bit: How about giving all For the Horde Troops the enraged promotion, so for each of them has a 3% chance per turn to become a barbarian again?
@ Monkeyfinger: The World spell does not do what it's supposed to do: Collecting the Orcs for a big strike against civilization. If the world spell does something useful, but this purpose does not in any way fit to the Clan, it should be changed. A free Marco Polo should be available to great sea traders like the Lanun (or since the introduction of airships the Kuriotates) not to a warmonger civilization.

 

[Imuratep]

Yesterday I had a very funny game with the Clan, which made me actually like the worldspell as it is, but only for a certain type of game. I turned my research of from the beginning, scouted a bit around and bought with the money I got some scorpion clan goblins. These I send into tundra where they were attacked by some wolves, by whom they were transformed into wolfriders (strangely no Scorpion Clan wolf riders - This should get fixed - I for my part went into world builder and made them) One of these units was quite well trained (Strength V and Shock I), so I thought by turn 50 how about using the worldspell of the Clan. I got tons of troops, but most importantly some of the Scorpion Clan Archers which are a nice attacking unit at this time. Then I dissolved all units on other continents, so I had no money losses per turn and killed 4 opponents just by buying 4 scorpion goblins every time I met an opponent, which I could affort by razing opponents cities. At some time my rush was over because the elves had discovered archers and the game could not be used for a win, but it was funny to crush more than the half of my continent.
Perhaps the best way to make the Worldspell better would be to create more Clans, not just Scorpion Clan, with other similar abilities (like Orc clans with fire +1 or +1 unholy). This would reflect quite good the tribal structure of the Orcs whose mightiest Clan happens to be the Clan of Embers, no more, no less.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

totally agreed with more clans! I think the goblin fort mechanic is great and lots of fun, but goblin forts seem to be too common. some more variety would make things a lot more interesting. orcish villages, spider caves, troll lairs, the list could go on forever.

and another fun thing would be to have lairs not always spawn identical creatures ad infinitum, but creating them with a random promotion, and even different creatures ( like barrows not spawning ALWAYS skeletons, but spawning a wider variety of undead etc. of course, the more powerful varieties should begin spawning after a while )

 

[onedreamer]

the real problem with this spell is that the units you get are completely disorganized. They are spread around the world and you can make little use of them. Think that IMO, the best use for this spell is to obtain early contact with all civs, and that's about it...

 

[cyther]

The worldspell needs changes it only serves the purpose of removing the garrisons from barb cities that can't be captured and ruining your economy.

 

[Draconian]

For the Horde isn't weak. You can easily get most of the goody huts on the map after casting it.

 

[MaxAstro]

For the Horde isn't weak. You can easily get most of the goody huts on the map after casting it.

Best use of For the Horde EVER: Playing a three (human) player Huge Terra map. Early game For the Horde game me a Lizardman on the new world. Who proceeded to get me a settler from a goody hut. Meaning I had a (coastal) city on the new world before anyone in the game had researched Sailing. XD Maintainence costs hurt, but I certainly know where I was putting my Forbidden Palace.

That said, the spell is pretty hard to use. The AI especially makes poor use of it. Ironic that a supposedly warmonger-style world spell's best uses are for exploration and meeting people. Used early game, and with careful deletion of unneeded units, it will let you meet basically every player in the game and get a huge leg up on goody huts. But that seems unthematic for a spell that seems to be calling the orcs to battle...

EDIT: Also, there is one distinctly late game use: If you cast it after the barbarians declare war on you, it will insta-capture nearly every barb city in the world. ^_^

...Again, if you can handle the maintainence costs... Runes of Kilmorph, anyone? ^_^¿

 

[SwampCow]

EDIT: Also, there is one distinctly late game use: If you cast it after the barbarians declare war on you, it will insta-capture nearly every barb city in the world. ^_^

This is what I use it for mostly. I love island maps and barbarian world. If you wait until they declare war and you have Nexus, you can pepper the map with island colonies. A good opening salvo for speed building nodes for a Tower of Mastery win.

 

[deadliver]

Nice idea about the barbarian capture!

I played a large erebus game with 21 civs playing Clan. Cast FTH on turn three (only cos I forgot) and ended up getting about 400 gold in goody huts and 5 scorpion clan archers. I love these guys!

I got my revenge on the AI, introducing them to raging barbarians from my perspective! Man I had a blast. Wiped out the Lanun, Svarts, Malakim, Sidar and Bannor, using the barbarian units (not mine) as a sort of cannon fodder before attacking with my Scorpion spearmen, with the archers as the final attacker.

This worldspell is sick if you want to get the ultimate head start by wiping out several civs in their nascent stages. Gawd I wanna play MP just to try this out there!

I mentioned before in a previous post that I would like to see the Clan have a ritual that lets them summon barbarian units but I don't really see a need to change the worldspell too much...after all I only wiped out about 25% of the civs so there were still plenty left to terrorize. Averaging 150 gold per pillage, those goblins more than paid for themselves!!!