The Comprehensive Thread of Requests For the Next Version of TAM

xrseyre · Jun 14, 2009

I got TAM for BTS working about 10 days ago. It presses a load of my buttons - ancient history in particular, but also modifying a game to be more realistic (I've produced boardgame mods in the past, including expansions for the Avalon Hill "Civilisation").

I really like the way in which the interaction of different unit types works in this - far better, IMHO, than unmodified Civ. The "feel" of play is, to my mind, really good.

There's always a "but", though. Notching down the difficulty level to Noble or less from my usual Prince or above, I've been trying to find a way of recapitulating the development of some ancient empires (Persia, Greece, Rome and Carthage). Oh - large map only, I find the smaller ones don't suit my "builder" style. I haven't been able to get anywhere close, and frankly, looking at the technologies, feel I should be running out of this technology tree by about 100 AD. I wonder whether a rejigging ot the timescale to end, say, a couple of hundred years earlier, bunching years earlier to fit in the number of turns would give a better historical feel?

Even then, I don't think I can see a way to equal the historical record - but it came to me that Persia, Rome and Carthage in particular worked through large numbers of Client States (i.e. Vassals) and Greece worked through colonies (i.e. the same) in order to get their expansion. Could I plead for an adjustment to give a fairly early vassalage possibility?

I grant I'd then have the irritation of unrealistic vassalages to far-off states and it being too difficult to make and break vassalages compared with the historical record (unless adjusting the AI is feasible), but I'd love to play around with this idea.

Chris

vogtmurr · Jul 15, 2009

I think this is is a great mod with lots of historical enjoyment. I had some suggestions for this mod that would no doubt be a lot of work, but would succeed in making this a more complete Ancient World experience up to the end of the Dark Age c. 800 AD.

The map is very nice but will it include to the tip of northern Scotland ? - then it could include a Gaelic culture, and a Scandinavian and Slavic culture in northern Europe as well. There is too much empty space in the far east and I think we should add a Parthian and Bactrian culture. It extends all the way to India, a teeny bit more and we could include an Mauryan or Indian culture. Extend south to the end of the Sahara in Africa and we could accommodate a Ghana/Kanem/Mali culture, allow navigation around the Arabian peninsula, accommodate the Arab civilization, and add Islam. And finally, the Jewish religion is represented but we need an Israel ! It would get too crowded on the big map, but the near east map could certainly accommodate Israel. So with the addition of 9 cultures it would flesh out very nicely, substituting for the 34 allowed in basic BtS. then there would not be quite so much empty space for barbarians to swarm the planet. (But the Barbarian migrations event could even be worked in with accelerated generation of barbarian armies and settlers at a random century between 200 and 600.)

Finally, I would add one more unique unit for each culture. Some of them now are just small incremental upgrades of eachother, and a bit more variety would capture the more famous types. These are just my ideas, hope some of them sound interesting to the rest of you.

Spoiler :

geralt · Jul 22, 2009

just a simple question: is my favourite mod (and in fact the only reason to play civ) still alive? I've returned to civ4 after some time hoping to find some news about TAM...

and please don't get me wrong I understand the rule "it will be ready when it's ready", I just wonder if there is some development and man can look forward to something

ambrox62 · Jul 22, 2009

Yes, TAM is alive and Shqype should upgrade to BTS 3.19 asap

geralt · Jul 22, 2009

ambrox62 said:
Yes, TAM is alive and Shqype should upgrade to BTS 3.19 asap

thanks for great news

Dr. Eszterhazy · Aug 20, 2009

I really enjoy this mod and I have spent many hours playing it. I would suggest giving the AI the archery tech and/or an archer to defend their cities with at start for the following reasons. I have noticed while playing on the huge map with 24 civilizations that the Goths, Carthaginians, Nubians, and Egyptians have an extremely tough time once the barbarians start to appear and usually get destroyed by the barbarians early. It is also very easy to warrior rush a nearby civilization as the AI initially defends their starting city with just one warrior for several thousand years. While playing as the Romans on Immortal difficulty I have been able to warrior rush the Illyrian civilization with 3 warriors, capturing the city on the Albania coast and 2 workers. The Tartessos and Iberian civilizations can also be wiped out early with 3 to 4 warrior, grabbing Rome another 4 captured workers from Spain. The captured workers give you a big (and unfair) advantage.

Ronald Gordo · Aug 26, 2009

ambrox62 said:
Yes, TAM is alive and Shqype should upgrade to BTS 3.19 asap

That's all I need to know.

Shqype · Nov 3, 2009

Guys, I'm sorry for the delay, but it's finally here! Find the BTS 3.19 DLL here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=340957

Get the latest version of TAM released recently, and just replace the included DLL with the one you can download above. All should be well.

Arralen · Nov 3, 2009

Hurray ! At last !
Big thanks !

geralt · Nov 3, 2009

that was quick... thank you

Neikius · Nov 11, 2009

Make scenarios visible from within the game so we can play multiplayer.

:worship:

ambrox62 · Nov 11, 2009

Scenarios are already visible from within the game.
May be a issue depending on steam? :confused:

Neikius · Nov 20, 2009

It does show all .civbeyondswordwbsave files, just not the ones from TAM...

I can load TAM files in singleplayer only when I explicitly load them from either worldbuilder OR from the windows... any ideas why is it like that?

I FOUND OUT THE FIX:

Dont install the mod in My Documents\My Games\MODS -> install it in the program files. Then it WORKS!

Neikius · Nov 21, 2009

Lategame:
- global warming
- roads changing to modern roads

Oh and the "silk road" thing is a bit incomplete (no text, explanations etc)... dunno what it does, a different type of victory? Building it now

ambrox62 · Nov 22, 2009

Neikius said:
Lategame:
- global warming
- roads changing to modern roads

Oh and the "silk road" thing is a bit incomplete (no text, explanations etc)... dunno what it does, a different type of victory? Building it now

I'm working on a XML patch which will get rid of these and more other stuff
I'll release it asap
In the meantime, please continue to report your game experience
Thanks

Hubris8 · Nov 22, 2009

Salve! I am also one who has perused the forums for many years as I find Civ Vanilla (including the expansions) to be immensely inadequate compared to the great player mods that have been developed. As my main interests lie in pre-modern history, I have stayed almost exclusively with TAM and later, the various FFHs.

While I greatly enjoyed TAM early on, my interest waned because I could not get over the late game transition to asphalt modern roads and hard hat/overall sporting workers. It completely ruined the atmosphere for me. With that said, TAM is a great mod that I would like to see continued and expanded. Now that it again works with the most current civ version I have returned to TAM. And I think the road/worker issue has been addressed?

Having played the various FFH mods I believe they hold a lot that TAM can benefit from. While I do not suggest complete and wholesale conversion of many of the features, perhaps communication with some of the developers and limited use of the work they've already done would greatly aid the development of TAM. For example some features worth considering may include:

- FFH addressed melee dominance by adding bombardment to ranged units such as archers. Realistically, an army with supporting archer units can volley before the engagement, softening the enemy for infantry or cavalry charges. Bombardment counts as the unit's attack but does not effect movement (it can still defend of course, which also adds realism to sieges where defending archers fire on the besiegers from the ramparts). In doing so, archery units return to their rightful place as important tactical considerations, something sorely lacking elsewhere in Civ mods.

- FFH utilized Improved forts, which are sadly deficient elsewhere in Civ. (I believe that Improved Forts was developed independently, but I might well be mistaken and apologize if i am.) Though their bonus would be more limited in TAM, it does not make much sense that a hilltop forest is better to defend than a hilltop fort. (I realize the advantages of a forested hilltop, but designed fortifications should trump the presence of a few natural trees.) This was addressed by allowing forest and forts to coexist (and also by fort development). FFH also incorporates a number of useful features: *The tiles a fort occupies become territory of the player, much like a mini city. *As time passes while the fort is on the map it grows (much like a cottage) eventually becoming more elaborate and thus giving a higher defense bonus. The later stage also expands the territory to 1 tile in all directions. Fort territory does not expand past that. The development and function of Oppida, as well as the gradual encastlation of Roman Legionary fortresses throughout the centuries gives more than adequate historical justification for such features within TAM. Perhaps associate the last stage of fort development with later technologies. Also, *upon completion of construction, a unit occupying the fort can create a "Fort Commander" a unit unable to move, with relatively low strength but high ranged strength. The commander gains experience through combat as well as at a slow passive rate. Enemy players can take the fort by killing the commander, thus the fort becomes their own territory, etc. Forts also provide defensive bonuses to cities within a certain number of tiles.

These features make forts much more valuable and interesting as tools in developing your territory. They allow you to hold important defensive positions outside the normal territory of your cities, while at the same time truly serve as fortified positions from which to defend and sally the enemy. Current game mechanics discourage the use of forts any time a simple forest is nearby. While some balancing and adjustment would be called for, the general features would be a great addition to TAM.

These are just two additions found within the FFH mods that would translate well to TAM. These components are already developed and bug-free, and would (i assume) require relatively little change to incorporate. I'm sure the developers and contributors of the various FFH mods, in the interest of creating better Civ mods in general, would be happy to discuss and contribute some of their unique features. These are merely the first two major features which came to mind that I believe would contribute well to TAM.

Some others which exist and may be worth considering include:
- additional "halt growth" buttons on the city info screen associated individually with anger and unhealthiness
- an onscreen greatperson bar showing the bar of the next city which will produce a great person (as well as the number of turns and % of person possible)
- more detailed and darker terrain set
- the limited ability to expand cities (perhaps a 'great city' feature in TAM) to utilize a 3 tile radius instead of 2
- Distinctive civilization city sets (while every civ in TAM would not necessarily warrant a unique city scheme, perhaps 4 or 5 corresponding to the general regions of the ancient world)

I'm sure there are other things i'm missing, but worth, I believe, consideration. Regardless, great mod, and thank you for all the work you've already put into it. I greatly look forward to the EU addition, I think it will greatly enhance the feel of TAM.
Cheers!

Neikius · Nov 22, 2009

Heh, since suggestions are appreciated I will add a few more

While I agree on stopping melee dominance it is also quite historically accurate to have it most of the time.

A few more:
- soundtrack playing also changes to modern era later in the game
- fort+forest sounds a bit OP to me

Though is it is now I almost never use forts...though those could be useful on chokepoints... iirc you can only build forts on hills, is that true?

One more idea about forts, I doubt it is doable but it would be fun if you could build another improvement on top of the fort *after* the fort has grown enough (if we ever see growing forts implemented anyway).

Hubris8 · Nov 22, 2009

Previous Statement:
"While I agree on stopping melee dominance it is also quite historically accurate to have it most of the time."

I should have clarified, the addition of ranged bombardment would not be intended to replace, but to supplement combat. Ranged units would fulfill a support role softening up enemy stacks while your melee and mounted units then charge in to attack. It works well in FFH. For example, an archer would have 3 str and 2 ranged str, while an axeman would have 4 str or swordsmen would have 5. Thus, archers (protected by other units) can soften up adjacent enemies, but in an all out attack they still can not easily overpower a full strength melee unit. Realistic balance is maintained. Take a look.

Also, forts can be built on flat land, it is jut preferential to build on a hill when possible for the additional bonus. But as it is, if you have the choice between a forested hill and a hilltop fort, you lose bonus by demolishing the forest. FFH increased the yields of forts as well to address your economic concern.

LeMAD · Dec 14, 2009

I noticed that the AI will never try to invade you by sea even he they have no other options. The only time they use their transport ship it's for their settlers. Is this a problem with the mod or the entire game?

ambrox62 · Dec 14, 2009

I suspect this is a BTS issue, because TAM doesn't change anything about naval AI, afaik.
However I've spotted AI unloading small stack of units (usually 3), although it prefers to block trading routes and to pillage your sea improvements.

The Comprehensive Thread of Requests For the Next Version of TAM

Chieftain

Emperor

Chieftain

Emperor

Chieftain

Chieftain

Chieftain

Shqyptar

Chieftain

Chieftain

Chieftain

Emperor

Attachments

Chieftain

Chieftain

Emperor

Chieftain

Chieftain

Chieftain

Chieftain

Emperor

Similar threads