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The Comprehensive Thread of Requests For the Next Version of TAM

Discussion in 'Civ4 - The Ancient Mediterranean MOD' started by Shqype, Dec 8, 2008.

  1. xrseyre

    xrseyre Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6
    I got TAM for BTS working about 10 days ago. It presses a load of my buttons - ancient history in particular, but also modifying a game to be more realistic (I've produced boardgame mods in the past, including expansions for the Avalon Hill "Civilisation").

    I really like the way in which the interaction of different unit types works in this - far better, IMHO, than unmodified Civ. The "feel" of play is, to my mind, really good.

    There's always a "but", though. Notching down the difficulty level to Noble or less from my usual Prince or above, I've been trying to find a way of recapitulating the development of some ancient empires (Persia, Greece, Rome and Carthage). Oh - large map only, I find the smaller ones don't suit my "builder" style. I haven't been able to get anywhere close, and frankly, looking at the technologies, feel I should be running out of this technology tree by about 100 AD. I wonder whether a rejigging ot the timescale to end, say, a couple of hundred years earlier, bunching years earlier to fit in the number of turns would give a better historical feel?

    Even then, I don't think I can see a way to equal the historical record - but it came to me that Persia, Rome and Carthage in particular worked through large numbers of Client States (i.e. Vassals) and Greece worked through colonies (i.e. the same) in order to get their expansion. Could I plead for an adjustment to give a fairly early vassalage possibility?

    I grant I'd then have the irritation of unrealistic vassalages to far-off states and it being too difficult to make and break vassalages compared with the historical record (unless adjusting the AI is feasible), but I'd love to play around with this idea.

    Chris
     
  2. vogtmurr

    vogtmurr Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Messages:
    1,249
    Location:
    my crib
    I think this is is a great mod with lots of historical enjoyment. I had some suggestions for this mod that would no doubt be a lot of work, but would succeed in making this a more complete Ancient World experience up to the end of the Dark Age c. 800 AD.

    The map is very nice but will it include to the tip of northern Scotland ? - then it could include a Gaelic culture, and a Scandinavian and Slavic culture in northern Europe as well. There is too much empty space in the far east and I think we should add a Parthian and Bactrian culture. It extends all the way to India, a teeny bit more and we could include an Mauryan or Indian culture. Extend south to the end of the Sahara in Africa and we could accommodate a Ghana/Kanem/Mali culture, allow navigation around the Arabian peninsula, accommodate the Arab civilization, and add Islam. And finally, the Jewish religion is represented but we need an Israel ! It would get too crowded on the big map, but the near east map could certainly accommodate Israel. So with the addition of 9 cultures it would flesh out very nicely, substituting for the 34 allowed in basic BtS. then there would not be quite so much empty space for barbarians to swarm the planet. (But the Barbarian migrations event could even be worked in with accelerated generation of barbarian armies and settlers at a random century between 200 and 600.)


    Finally, I would add one more unique unit for each culture. Some of them now are just small incremental upgrades of eachother, and a bit more variety would capture the more famous types. These are just my ideas, hope some of them sound interesting to the rest of you.

    Spoiler :
    Besides the basic non unique units:

    Babylon (Near East only)
    Babylon archer => Babylon composite archer, add 'Vulture' Sumerian axeman

    Persia
    'Immortal' spearman, Persian medium cavalry, add 'Kardaksha' skirmisher (armored javelineer-archer)

    Assyria (Near East only)
    'Redu' spearman, battering ram tower, add heavy (4 man) chariot archers

    Egypt
    Egypt war chariot, change Nubian mercenary to Medjay bowmen, add 'Sherden' swordsman

    Nubia
    Nubian mercenary skirmisher, Nubian composite archer, add Amazon Chieftainess (elephant rider, after Candace of Meroe ;))

    Phoenecia (Near East only)
    Phoenecian merchant, Phoenecian bireme (allow 1 unit capacity), add Aramaean Camel Rider (can defend, conducts trade missions)

    Hittite
    3 man chariot, iron swordsman, add Phrygian skirmisher

    Ionian (Magna Graecia only)
    Ionian cavalry, Ionian hoplite => add Ionian mercenary (version of armoured spearman) both with withdrawal and city taking bonus.

    Minoan (Magna Graecia only)
    Minoan archer => Minoan composite archer, Minoan bireme (as per Greek bireme)

    Greek
    hoplite (amphibious) => add phalanx (armoured spearman), both with city defense, melee bonus, add Greek trireme. How about Pericles for a leader ?

    Thrace (Magna Graecia only)
    Hillman (swordsman), Thracian Peltast skirmisher, add Thessalian cavalry (mounted javelineer)

    Illyria (Magna Graecia only)
    Kambsor spearman, Lembi (bireme) => add Liburnian (trireme, speedy, +withdrawal)

    Scythia
    Steppe rider => Steppe marauder (heavy horse archer), add mounted scout (scout)

    Media (Near East only)
    Wild Axeman, Mountain rider, add Hill archer (archer)

    Goth
    Goth 'Berserker', 'Huskarl' armored infantry, add mailed cavalry (heavy cavalry)

    German tribes
    Woodsman, Berserk swordsman, add German horseman (instead of chariot)

    Gaul
    Gallic swordsman, Gallic cavalier (heavy cavalry), add Gallic war cart (chariot)

    Britons
    Swift Chariot archer, Briton marauder, add Welsh longbowman (bowman)

    Romans
    Onager (catapult), legionary (infantry) => add Praetorian (armored infantry)

    Hispanic Tribes
    slinger => armored slinger, add Hispanic warrior (medium spearman, +forest defense, withdrawal)

    Tartessus
    Sounion javelineer, Iberian mounted javelineer, add Iberian swordsman (medium, +vs. heavy units)

    Carthage
    Libyan mercenary spearman, Carthaginian war elephant, add Numidian light cavalry

    Kolchis
    Kolchis war chariot, Kolchis marauder, add dromon (fire galley) - arbitrary choice but an argument could be made for it here, anyway the ship should be represented.

    Dacia
    peltast, Falxman, add Getae light cavalry

    New civilizations:

    add India, Asoka
    scythe bearing war chariot (+ strength on plains), Indian war elephant, Indian bowman, hero: Chandragupta (elephant)

    add Scandinavia, Canute
    Seeax (axeman, melee, amphibious), longship (bireme, carry 1 unit, travel up rivers and 4 squares from shore), Varangian (infantry), hero: Beowulf (seeax)

    add Gaelic tribes, Robert the Bruce
    Coracle (transport galley, travel up rivers and 4 squares from shore), Highlander (swordsman, blitz, +forest, +hills), Schiltron (heavy spearman), hero: Wallace (highlander)

    add Parthia
    Parthian heavy horse archer, Parthian cataphract (heavy cavalry), Pontic spearman (+ hills defense)
    hero: Parthian heavy horse archer

    add Bactria
    Bactrian mounted lancer (medium cavalry), Bactrian camel rider (heavy horse archer), Bactrian wagon train (provides mobile defense, reduces unit maintenance). hero: Bactrian mounted lancer

    add Slavic tribes
    Bulgar mailed cavalry (heavy cavalry), Slavic axeman (+city defense), Wagonberg (mobile defense)
    hero: Slavic axeman

    add Xiong-Nu
    Yuezhi horse archer, desert rider (light cavalry, + desert defense, movement 3, blitz), Camp (settler, makes mobile town). hero: Modu Chanyu (desert rider)

    add Ghana (Mali)
    Skirmisher (archer), Sahel spearman, Touareg camel rider (light cavalry) all with desert defense
    hero: Touareg camel rider

    add Arabia, Saladin
    Camel Archer (heavy horse archer), mounted swordsman (light cavalry), Hashashim assassin (spy) can assassinate great generals, spies, even great people. hero: Khalid ibn al-Walid (mounted swordsman)

    Optional:
    add Armenia (in Near East scenario only)
    Pontic spearman (+ hills, cities), Armenian cataphract (medium cavalry), Armenian composite archer
    hero: Pontic spearman

    add Macedonia (in Magna Graecia only)
    add Companions (heavy cavalry), Argyraspides (armoured spearmen), Hypaspists (swordsmen)
    hero: Alexander (Companion)

    add Israel, King Solomon (in Near East scenario only)
    Israelite slinger (hills defense, +movement, 2-4 first strikes), Levite warrior (medium spearman, +vs. cities, hills defense), Maccabaean swordsman (hills, desert defense), hero: David (slinger)

    More Generic siege units

    Ballistas: strength 3, 1 ranged attack/turn.
    Trebuchet: strength 5, reduce defenses 25%/turn, or 1 ranged attack/turn
    Sappers: can build roads, forts, bridges or reduce defenses

    colonist: settler with defense ability as per basic spearman, can build improvements as per worker, and after founding city leaves worker.

    Wagon train: reduces maintenance costs for up to 5 items in square. Provides medic 1.
    Siege quinquereme: as per quinquereme but no units, 1 ranged attack/turn at 4, or reduce defenses 20%/turn.
    caravel: combination trade barge and transport (2 units), ocean going = dhow for Babylon, Egypt, Nubia, Arabia, Persia

    Special:

    modify Great general: provides one time 20 XP evenly distributed to units in hex. Also can be moved between units. Adds combat 1 and medic 1 to any unit attached to.

    Great Admiral - similar but for ships

    Barbarian warlord: Attracts any barbarian units encountered as adherents. Adds combat 1 and medic 1 to any unit attached to.

    Hyenas, replaces wolves in the tropics

    Treasure Hoard (earned): reduces maintenance costs by 50% for armies within 1 square. Can be used to bribe enemy spies or great generals.

    National hero unit: Centurion (infantry), 3 allowed.

    Military Wonders (mid to late game):
    Helepolis (with advanced siege tech): 'city taker', 2 ranged attacks/turn at 5 as per trebuchet, or reduce defenses 30%/turn, carries 5 units as per siege tower, collateral damage, no withdrawal chance
    Tesserakonter (with shipbuilding tech): 10/4, 1 ranged attack/turn at 5, carries 5 units, collateral damage, no withdrawal chance
    Marian reforms (with bureaucracy civic and enfranchisement): 10% reduction in military support costs
    Warrior Caste (with athletics, oligarchy, mysticism): units from that city gain 1 extra experience level
    Famous Horse Stock (with selective breeding): cavalry gain +1 movement
    Ishtar Gate (with corvee civic): City walls grant 10% extra defense value
    Acropolis (with aristocracy civic): forts and citadels grant extra 10% defense value
    vorpal blade (with steel): all iron based units reequip with steel

    Other wonders:
    Olympic Games (with organized religion and athletics): adds culture points, raises regard of other nations
     
  3. geralt

    geralt Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    28
    just a simple question: is my favourite mod (and in fact the only reason to play civ) still alive? I've returned to civ4 after some time hoping to find some news about TAM...

    and please don't get me wrong I understand the rule "it will be ready when it's ready", I just wonder if there is some development and man can look forward to something
     
  4. ambrox62

    ambrox62 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,294
    Yes, TAM is alive and Shqype should upgrade to BTS 3.19 asap ;)
     
  5. geralt

    geralt Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
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    28
    thanks for great news
     
  6. Dr. Eszterhazy

    Dr. Eszterhazy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2008
    Messages:
    38
    I really enjoy this mod and I have spent many hours playing it. I would suggest giving the AI the archery tech and/or an archer to defend their cities with at start for the following reasons. I have noticed while playing on the huge map with 24 civilizations that the Goths, Carthaginians, Nubians, and Egyptians have an extremely tough time once the barbarians start to appear and usually get destroyed by the barbarians early. It is also very easy to warrior rush a nearby civilization as the AI initially defends their starting city with just one warrior for several thousand years. While playing as the Romans on Immortal difficulty I have been able to warrior rush the Illyrian civilization with 3 warriors, capturing the city on the Albania coast and 2 workers. The Tartessos and Iberian civilizations can also be wiped out early with 3 to 4 warrior, grabbing Rome another 4 captured workers from Spain. The captured workers give you a big (and unfair) advantage.
     
  7. Ronald Gordo

    Ronald Gordo Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
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    31
    Location:
    Santiago - Brazil
    That's all I need to know. :D
     
  8. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2005
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    Location:
    New York + Shqypni
    Guys, I'm sorry for the delay, but it's finally here! Find the BTS 3.19 DLL here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=340957

    Get the latest version of TAM released recently, and just replace the included DLL with the one you can download above. All should be well.
     
  9. Arralen

    Arralen Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2008
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    69
    Hurray ! At last !
    Big thanks !
     
  10. geralt

    geralt Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
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    that was quick... thank you
     
  11. Neikius

    Neikius Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    Messages:
    61
    Make scenarios visible from within the game so we can play multiplayer.

    :worship::worship:
     
  12. ambrox62

    ambrox62 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,294
    Scenarios are already visible from within the game.
    May be a issue depending on steam? :confused:
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Neikius

    Neikius Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    Messages:
    61
    It does show all .civbeyondswordwbsave files, just not the ones from TAM...

    I can load TAM files in singleplayer only when I explicitly load them from either worldbuilder OR from the windows... any ideas why is it like that?


    I FOUND OUT THE FIX:

    Dont install the mod in My Documents\My Games\MODS -> install it in the program files. Then it WORKS!
     
  14. Neikius

    Neikius Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    Messages:
    61
    Lategame:
    - global warming
    - roads changing to modern roads

    Oh and the "silk road" thing is a bit incomplete (no text, explanations etc)... dunno what it does, a different type of victory? Building it now :)
     
  15. ambrox62

    ambrox62 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
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    I'm working on a XML patch which will get rid of these and more other stuff
    I'll release it asap
    In the meantime, please continue to report your game experience
    Thanks
     
  16. Hubris8

    Hubris8 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2
    Salve! I am also one who has perused the forums for many years as I find Civ Vanilla (including the expansions) to be immensely inadequate compared to the great player mods that have been developed. As my main interests lie in pre-modern history, I have stayed almost exclusively with TAM and later, the various FFHs.

    While I greatly enjoyed TAM early on, my interest waned because I could not get over the late game transition to asphalt modern roads and hard hat/overall sporting workers. It completely ruined the atmosphere for me. With that said, TAM is a great mod that I would like to see continued and expanded. Now that it again works with the most current civ version I have returned to TAM. And I think the road/worker issue has been addressed?

    Having played the various FFH mods I believe they hold a lot that TAM can benefit from. While I do not suggest complete and wholesale conversion of many of the features, perhaps communication with some of the developers and limited use of the work they've already done would greatly aid the development of TAM. For example some features worth considering may include:

    - FFH addressed melee dominance by adding bombardment to ranged units such as archers. Realistically, an army with supporting archer units can volley before the engagement, softening the enemy for infantry or cavalry charges. Bombardment counts as the unit's attack but does not effect movement (it can still defend of course, which also adds realism to sieges where defending archers fire on the besiegers from the ramparts). In doing so, archery units return to their rightful place as important tactical considerations, something sorely lacking elsewhere in Civ mods.

    - FFH utilized Improved forts, which are sadly deficient elsewhere in Civ. (I believe that Improved Forts was developed independently, but I might well be mistaken and apologize if i am.) Though their bonus would be more limited in TAM, it does not make much sense that a hilltop forest is better to defend than a hilltop fort. (I realize the advantages of a forested hilltop, but designed fortifications should trump the presence of a few natural trees.) This was addressed by allowing forest and forts to coexist (and also by fort development). FFH also incorporates a number of useful features: *The tiles a fort occupies become territory of the player, much like a mini city. *As time passes while the fort is on the map it grows (much like a cottage) eventually becoming more elaborate and thus giving a higher defense bonus. The later stage also expands the territory to 1 tile in all directions. Fort territory does not expand past that. The development and function of Oppida, as well as the gradual encastlation of Roman Legionary fortresses throughout the centuries gives more than adequate historical justification for such features within TAM. Perhaps associate the last stage of fort development with later technologies. Also, *upon completion of construction, a unit occupying the fort can create a "Fort Commander" a unit unable to move, with relatively low strength but high ranged strength. The commander gains experience through combat as well as at a slow passive rate. Enemy players can take the fort by killing the commander, thus the fort becomes their own territory, etc. Forts also provide defensive bonuses to cities within a certain number of tiles.

    These features make forts much more valuable and interesting as tools in developing your territory. They allow you to hold important defensive positions outside the normal territory of your cities, while at the same time truly serve as fortified positions from which to defend and sally the enemy. Current game mechanics discourage the use of forts any time a simple forest is nearby. While some balancing and adjustment would be called for, the general features would be a great addition to TAM.

    These are just two additions found within the FFH mods that would translate well to TAM. These components are already developed and bug-free, and would (i assume) require relatively little change to incorporate. I'm sure the developers and contributors of the various FFH mods, in the interest of creating better Civ mods in general, would be happy to discuss and contribute some of their unique features. These are merely the first two major features which came to mind that I believe would contribute well to TAM.

    Some others which exist and may be worth considering include:
    - additional "halt growth" buttons on the city info screen associated individually with anger and unhealthiness
    - an onscreen greatperson bar showing the bar of the next city which will produce a great person (as well as the number of turns and % of person possible)
    - more detailed and darker terrain set
    - the limited ability to expand cities (perhaps a 'great city' feature in TAM) to utilize a 3 tile radius instead of 2
    - Distinctive civilization city sets (while every civ in TAM would not necessarily warrant a unique city scheme, perhaps 4 or 5 corresponding to the general regions of the ancient world)

    I'm sure there are other things i'm missing, but worth, I believe, consideration. Regardless, great mod, and thank you for all the work you've already put into it. I greatly look forward to the EU addition, I think it will greatly enhance the feel of TAM.
    Cheers!
     
  17. Neikius

    Neikius Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
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    Heh, since suggestions are appreciated I will add a few more :)

    While I agree on stopping melee dominance it is also quite historically accurate to have it most of the time.

    A few more:
    - soundtrack playing also changes to modern era later in the game
    - fort+forest sounds a bit OP to me :) Though is it is now I almost never use forts...though those could be useful on chokepoints... iirc you can only build forts on hills, is that true?

    One more idea about forts, I doubt it is doable but it would be fun if you could build another improvement on top of the fort *after* the fort has grown enough (if we ever see growing forts implemented anyway).
     
  18. Hubris8

    Hubris8 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2
    Previous Statement:
    "While I agree on stopping melee dominance it is also quite historically accurate to have it most of the time."

    I should have clarified, the addition of ranged bombardment would not be intended to replace, but to supplement combat. Ranged units would fulfill a support role softening up enemy stacks while your melee and mounted units then charge in to attack. It works well in FFH. For example, an archer would have 3 str and 2 ranged str, while an axeman would have 4 str or swordsmen would have 5. Thus, archers (protected by other units) can soften up adjacent enemies, but in an all out attack they still can not easily overpower a full strength melee unit. Realistic balance is maintained. Take a look.

    Also, forts can be built on flat land, it is jut preferential to build on a hill when possible for the additional bonus. But as it is, if you have the choice between a forested hill and a hilltop fort, you lose bonus by demolishing the forest. FFH increased the yields of forts as well to address your economic concern.
     
  19. LeMAD

    LeMAD Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    9
    I noticed that the AI will never try to invade you by sea even he they have no other options. The only time they use their transport ship it's for their settlers. Is this a problem with the mod or the entire game?
     
  20. ambrox62

    ambrox62 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
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    1,294
    I suspect this is a BTS issue, because TAM doesn't change anything about naval AI, afaik.
    However I've spotted AI unloading small stack of units (usually 3), although it prefers to block trading routes and to pillage your sea improvements.
     

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