The Dagger

[Major Tom]

Anyone know when this will or can occur?

Played a random deity game, continental type map (fractal), with me, Justinian, Bismarck and Peter on one continent. Hindu love feast as Justinian spread his religion. Was friendly with all (shiny yellow happy faces). Playing a charismatic leader so even didn’t need MP in most cities. After double bulbing education and not far from lib and UoS, suddenly Peter (friendly, shared religion and civic ++) showed up with a stack and wiped out 3 cities (ragequit).

Anyway to prevent this?

Thanks for tips in advance.

 

[sampsa]

Friendly AIs will never dagger you. He must've started plotting at pleased.

 

[Major Tom]

Friendly AIs will never dagger you. He must've started plotting at pleased.

OK, but the red fist was only up one turn before he attacked. We have been friendly for centuries. In addition, we ha had no shared borders. Guess he couldn’t have been bribed either, even if I stole tiles from Justinian with culture.

Perhaps I am mixing up explanations (dagger).

 

[lymond]

Sampsa is right ..probably have to see the game to know for sure but Pete would not have dow'd you if not already plotting before he was Friendly....no way he plots at Friendly. AIs do not "dagger" if they cannot plot.

 

[sampsa]

@Major Tom do you have saves?

 

[sampsa]

Also, you can't be bribed on unless you are in a war.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Peter seems to be one of those guys who can declare out of the blue. It happened twice in my games that he attacked without a warning, probably because I culture-pressed him too hard. But he was not friendly then. However, he seemed not to have been plotting before

If I think really hard, who else, then I remember Wang and Louis, who did the same. In both cases spontanious DoW, not even having a stack on my border. And not even for an obvious reason. I had suspected that they wanted to settle a spot where I had blocked them off...

I wonder if this is personality-bound?

 

[Major Tom]

@Major Tom do you have saves?

Perhaps, but not able to post them tonight.

What is the difference between the dagger and ordinary war preparations?

By the way, thanks for replying to this topic.

 

[Major Tom]

Thinking about it, he was heavy on espionage on me for a long time, perhaps meaning he was preparing. But should not the red fist been shown earlier?

 

[AcaMetis]

Unlikely theory, but maybe worth asking: Did you or Peter have any vassals that would have averaged out your relationship to merely Pleased? Other unlikely theory that might be worth asking: Did you refuse any demands from him? Maybe that can set AIs off even when they're friendly (be the first I'd ever heard of such a mechanic, but, I mean, maybe?)?

Thinking about it, he was heavy on espionage on me for a long time, perhaps meaning he was preparing. But should not the red fist been shown earlier?

The red fist won't show if you can't open the trade window with an AI and look at whether he says he's "got enough on his hands right now". So if, for example, he refused to talk to you for whatever reason that would prevent the red fist from showing up.

 

[Major Tom]

Unlikely theory, but maybe worth asking: Did you or Peter have any vassals that would have averaged out your relationship to merely Pleased? Other unlikely theory that might be worth asking: Did you refuse any demands from him? Maybe that can set AIs off even when they're friendly (be the first I'd ever heard of such a mechanic, but, I mean, maybe?)?
The red fist won't show if you can't open the trade window with an AI and look at whether he says he's "got enough on his hands right now". So if, for example, he refused to talk to you for whatever reason that would prevent the red fist from showing up.

No vassals. No demands. If it matters I play with the mod Better BUG AI by Fuyu. And thinking about it, I have plenty of exit saves so will post tomorrow.

But still, what is The Dagger (no fist?) compared to ordinary war prep?

 

[dankok8]

Maybe you played with aggressive AI option on? I don't know if that could have caused it but AI's are not supposed to plot at Friendly. And Cathy is the only leader that can be bribed at Friendly.

 

[AcaMetis]

I'm pretty sure Aggressive AIs don't break the "can't plot at Pleased/Friendly" rule. I'm assuming it's due to the Better BUG AI mod, though I'm not familiar with it's changes to the base game. Or with dagger mechanics, unfortunately .

 

[Fippy]

I think dagger was used for instant DoW without red fist warning, when they already have an army ready to walk into your borders.
I remember Kossin had such a game, where an AI sent units after barb cities and when a stack was near his borders they attacked him instead.

Cathy being bribed at friendly i.e. wouldn't be a dagger for me, just something that's possible and makes her special.

 

[Snowbird]

But still, what is The Dagger (no fist?) compared to ordinary war prep?

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/is-there-any-logic-to-an-ai-dow.286180/page-5

Nonsense factor (based on AI cap coordinates) is .... yeah. So, military idiots in NE (I think that is how coordinates works) are the most dangerous, since nonsense is multiplier.

p.s. IIRC, dagger is long term AI strategy... which mostly is build mil units and figure what to do with them later. So, most DoW from military nuts (Monty and Co) are probably under dagger. No red fist, IMHO, happens if their dagger prepared stack is really close (well, AI like to keep stack in border cities).

 

[Major Tom]

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/is-there-any-logic-to-an-ai-dow.286180/page-5

Nonsense factor (based on AI cap coordinates) is .... yeah. So, military idiots in NE (I think that is how coordinates works) are the most dangerous, since nonsense is multiplier.

p.s. IIRC, dagger is long term AI strategy... which mostly is build mil units and figure what to do with them later. So, most DoW from military nuts (Monty and Co) are probably under dagger. No red fist, IMHO, happens if their dagger prepared stack is really close (well, AI like to keep stack in border cities).

Thanks, exactly what I was looking for.

By the way, looking back on a save 6 turns before dow, he was indeed only pleased and looking in chipotle mode I was war target. Meaning sampsa and ly is right. Didn’t matter a couple of turns later friendly.

Still, I wonder why not a red fist was shown at that point. Perhaps he was always open to be bribed to attack someone, so no “We have enough in our hands “.

Also what @Snowbird says that dagger is long term, fits in.