Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Or if their units became maintenance free after winning combat. 
The Doviello!!!!
- Thread starter Tasunke
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Senethro
Overlord
Mahala begins with 50 gold so that only 30 less commerce that someone starting with Agriculture. She has normal research rate. Apart from lacking libraries her economy is just as strong as any other non-financial leader. Generate a Great Sage and Academy your highest commerce city and you're already most of the way there, so who cares about Libraries? I think its somewhat questionable whether researching Writing even if Libraries were available would be playing the the Doviello's strengths. Would +25% research from a high hammer build really get you to your first Tier 3 units faster?
Its also worth pointing out all the things Mahala saves on. Training Yards, Mage Guilds and the 50% upgrade costs. What you make goes further.
Its also worth pointing out all the things Mahala saves on. Training Yards, Mage Guilds and the 50% upgrade costs. What you make goes further.
Organised, charismatic, expansive, creative, philosophical etc all give other bonuses that effectively boost your economy far more than a saving on a couple of training yards and a mage guild. The lack of libraries does give you a noticable slowdown in tech. The big bonus from building military units without a required building is actually the speed you can militarize, but that's only useful if you have the economy to support a military campaign. This is where the Doviello really fail, whatever they conquer just drags their economy to a standstill.
Senethro
Overlord
Organised is barely relevent as civic costs feel cheaper than in BTS as I rarely break 30 upkeep a turn, Courthouses are more expensive and less powerful. Charismatic is +1 happiness in a game saturated with cheap happiness. Expansive gives health where grassland farms can make 5 food by turn 150. Creative is a joke.
Philosophical is significant but not in the early game where specialist slots are rare. Phi leaders also have a habit of being in militarily weak civs or outshone by their partner leader, which disappoints me as I like the trait.
As you noted the Doviello have incredible speed of militarization. This allows them to build safely. When playing other civs I have to build training facilities and military in my best cities to support my newer ones which leads to big delays. When playing the Doviello I can throw up my Public Baths and Temples as soon as I have the tech because I know that if trouble appears I can respond to it with immediate empire-wide axeman spam. Thats two forms of turn advantage right there.
Onionsoilder
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It's not that the Doviello are weak, it's that everything they can do, someone else can do better. Early warfare? Svartalfar or Hippus wipe them off the table. Cheap units? Khazad have a better economy with the same discounts. Bonuses in cold terrain? Illians actually gain extra food, not just combat bonuses. Peace with the barbarians? The Clan or later the Infernals have the same abilities, with stronger leaders.
In FFH, nearly every civilization has it's own niche, something that the Doviello are lacking. I do like you're idea for Lucian Senethro, and I think that combined with maybe that extra hammer on tundra or food from camps would be enough to give them their own playground.
As far as those traits not being very useful... well, they are useful. The +1 happiness from Charismatic might not mean much later, but early on that extra population can really be beneficial. The discount on promotions is probably it's greatest strength, however. Same with expansive; +3 health may not seem like a lot, but that's another citizen you can have being a specialist instead of farming. The cheap granaries and settlers are actually extremely useful for the Doviello as well. The cheaper civics from Organized may be a joke, but the cheap buildings are very useful. Creative might be weak, but that means you don't need to build a monument in new cities early on, and it might give you the edge you need when competing with another civ's borders for land.
In FFH, nearly every civilization has it's own niche, something that the Doviello are lacking. I do like you're idea for Lucian Senethro, and I think that combined with maybe that extra hammer on tundra or food from camps would be enough to give them their own playground.
As far as those traits not being very useful... well, they are useful. The +1 happiness from Charismatic might not mean much later, but early on that extra population can really be beneficial. The discount on promotions is probably it's greatest strength, however. Same with expansive; +3 health may not seem like a lot, but that's another citizen you can have being a specialist instead of farming. The cheap granaries and settlers are actually extremely useful for the Doviello as well. The cheaper civics from Organized may be a joke, but the cheap buildings are very useful. Creative might be weak, but that means you don't need to build a monument in new cities early on, and it might give you the edge you need when competing with another civ's borders for land.
Charismatic gives faster levels (which is fitting for Charadon, and lore-wise he was charismatic)
Expansive gives faster settlers, which is fitting for Jonas Endain and Cardith Lorda, because they both have massive republics, the main difference is the Political control of those provinces (or Lorda's lack of control) as well as the socio-economic differences.
Expansive and Aggresive fit the Orc races well ... the Organized trait fits the Orcs *less* than the others, however since Sheelba is an *outcast leader* or rather a leader that grew up in sturctured society and is pushing for Reforms among the Orc Clans, then ORganized fits for her.
Spiritual Fits for Jonas because he overthrew the Sisterhood of Bhall and became the De-Facto leader. In some ways he is Charismatic, but only in the aspects that he is a Charlatan deposer religious leader. So Spiritual still fits him better than Charismatic.
The traits that fit the Doviello leaders are Aggressive, Raiders, (Charismatic for Charadon) and (Ingenuity for Mahala).
So far you have only given reasons for Why Mahala works. Personally, I would advise to give Mahala either Aggresive or Organized, and to give Charadon either Charismatic or Raiders.
Personally I would prefer Mahala to be Agg/Rai/Ing and Charadon Agg/Cha/Barb
of course, if you feel Mahala is strong enough, then simply add Charismatic to Charadon. Which, personally is what I would advise.
Thus my advised Changes are to add charismatic to Charadon, make Lucien an immortal Great Commander, give the civ +1 hammers on tundra, and give Battlemasters at least +20% melee.
Expansive gives faster settlers, which is fitting for Jonas Endain and Cardith Lorda, because they both have massive republics, the main difference is the Political control of those provinces (or Lorda's lack of control) as well as the socio-economic differences.
Expansive and Aggresive fit the Orc races well ... the Organized trait fits the Orcs *less* than the others, however since Sheelba is an *outcast leader* or rather a leader that grew up in sturctured society and is pushing for Reforms among the Orc Clans, then ORganized fits for her.
Spiritual Fits for Jonas because he overthrew the Sisterhood of Bhall and became the De-Facto leader. In some ways he is Charismatic, but only in the aspects that he is a Charlatan deposer religious leader. So Spiritual still fits him better than Charismatic.
The traits that fit the Doviello leaders are Aggressive, Raiders, (Charismatic for Charadon) and (Ingenuity for Mahala).
So far you have only given reasons for Why Mahala works. Personally, I would advise to give Mahala either Aggresive or Organized, and to give Charadon either Charismatic or Raiders.
Personally I would prefer Mahala to be Agg/Rai/Ing and Charadon Agg/Cha/Barb
of course, if you feel Mahala is strong enough, then simply add Charismatic to Charadon. Which, personally is what I would advise.
Thus my advised Changes are to add charismatic to Charadon, make Lucien an immortal Great Commander, give the civ +1 hammers on tundra, and give Battlemasters at least +20% melee.
People are always underestimating the Doviello. The first thing I always do after downloading a modmod that changes them is to look how fast I can conquer the whole world on a standard pangea map on immortal. I never need more than 200 turns if I play base FFH, FF, Orbis or in Wildmana. You just have to be willing to start wars ASAP and to bash your opponent with your starting units. It's simple, oldfashioned, straitforward - certainly nothing flashy (but that is another point that has nothing to do with their power). Sometimes you want just to take your axe and slaughter through your opponents without being obliged to go for more than bronzeworking and the base economical buildings.
Onionsoilder
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Now try doing that with Hippus.
Sure the Hippus are very strong and on the long run probably stronger (as they are among the best civs in the game). But that does not mean Doviello aren't strong either. I never meant to say that they are the strongest civ, but that they aren't that weak as some people assert.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
How fast does it go in RifE? Quite likely to be faster.
Onionsoilder
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It's not just the Hippus. I've done similar conquest runs with Svartalfar, The Clan, Luchuirp/Mercurians, Sheaim and Khazad. That's a lot of competition for the Doviello. Outside of early conquest, the Khazad have a stronger economy, Sheaim stronger magic, Svartalfar and Hippus have stronger units and the Luchuirp/Mercurians have the largest army(You could say the same about any civ and the Mercurians, but the Luchuirp can summon them the fastest, hands-down).
The point is while the Doviello might be okay, they really don't excel in any one area. They don't have a unique bonus that is fun to play around with. In fact, they are about as close to a vanilla BTS civilization as you can get.
Well, technically Hippus are THE most vanilla, followed by the Bannor ... in terms of cosmetics.
However yes, purely in terms of actual results/functionality ... the Doviello are the most vanilla.
I say the Hippus are Vanilla cosmetically and not mechanically not because of the Awesome art that they have, but because to the untrained eye they would "appear" to be without flavor or new mechanics.
In reality, much like the Svartalphar, and entire Unit-class is their special feature. The Hippus reliability in fielding an Elite Cavalry is practically unrivalled, except perhaps by the Kuriotates.
And the bannor, of course, have their melee and their Crusade.
I think an Immortal Great General for the Doviello is quite pleasingly fitting, both in Lore and Mechanically speaking via comparison.
(Personally I prefer for Valledia to have Guardsman, Bannor to have default race as Valor, and Dain Casswallan to be Arcane/Charismatic) -although that a tad too Magister Modmod
However yes, purely in terms of actual results/functionality ... the Doviello are the most vanilla.
I say the Hippus are Vanilla cosmetically and not mechanically not because of the Awesome art that they have, but because to the untrained eye they would "appear" to be without flavor or new mechanics.
In reality, much like the Svartalphar, and entire Unit-class is their special feature. The Hippus reliability in fielding an Elite Cavalry is practically unrivalled, except perhaps by the Kuriotates.
And the bannor, of course, have their melee and their Crusade.
I think an Immortal Great General for the Doviello is quite pleasingly fitting, both in Lore and Mechanically speaking via comparison.
(Personally I prefer for Valledia to have Guardsman, Bannor to have default race as Valor, and Dain Casswallan to be Arcane/Charismatic) -although that a tad too Magister Modmod
CitizenSnips
Chieftain
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I always feel so inferior when the Doviello approach me offering to trade Writing for one of my techs. It's like really, you guys figured out how to write before us? What are my sages doing with my money???
Ekolite
Deity
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I think the Doviello excel in the area of speed. For the Hippus you have to get to Horseback Riding before you can really start to build your army. You could build scouts before that and then upgrade them but that costs a lot of money. The Doviello can just tech whatever they need to get a few more population. This is probably Agriculture, but maybe Exploration if there are deer around (I play wildmana), meanwhile they can be cranking out loads of warriors and can be attacking their nearest enemy in just a few turns with a large stack lead by Lucian.
Like many people I usually give Charadon charismatic, which makes Charadon a very strong leader IMO, at least in the early game. Once mid-game sets in you should have two or three more cities then your closest competitor.
Right. I don't think that any civ except the Hippus (with their worldspell) is able to lead and win war until turn 10-15. After that Lucian is so strong that he can easily kill any civilization. This constant flow of war is what makes Doviello interesting.
I have actually had the successful Lucien at my disposal and he actually can't remove enemy civilisations if they're properly defended. There are plenty of enemy civilisations that can turtle up with enough warriors in a hilly capital to keep him out if you play on a high enough level. You also have to be lucky to get the mighty Lucien as he usually has to start his career attacking at 70-90% and he frequently bites the dust.
Senethro
Overlord
I have to say that I haven't seen Lucian go killing civilizations either. I usually use him defensively and send my warriors exploring.
heh, yes if you give Charadon Charismatic then it will help them out somewhat.
I mean, Charadon SHOULD be Agg/Cha/Barb, part of what Ive been saying is that he deserves Charismatic in most if not all versions of FFH
Of course, I would personally still like to see +1 hammer on tundra, and an immortal Great General Lucien, starting off leading an extra beastman. In this case, for all immediate intents and purposes Lucien is the same at the beginning. However, you get him again if he "dies" and you can keep using him in the late game. Should probably block him from building any commander buildings, or simply allow him to build the Military Academy only once, and Recruit only once. Or perhaps you want him to regain the recruit ability after he makes a sucessful kill. Personally, I'd just allow him to make a free military academy (most likely in your capital) and not even worry about recruitment. IF you somehow feel that an early Military Academy is too strong, then perhaps make them Tech Military Strat before Lucien can add a free Military Academy. Personally, I think its fine from turn 1.
I mean, Charadon SHOULD be Agg/Cha/Barb, part of what Ive been saying is that he deserves Charismatic in most if not all versions of FFH
Of course, I would personally still like to see +1 hammer on tundra, and an immortal Great General Lucien, starting off leading an extra beastman. In this case, for all immediate intents and purposes Lucien is the same at the beginning. However, you get him again if he "dies" and you can keep using him in the late game. Should probably block him from building any commander buildings, or simply allow him to build the Military Academy only once, and Recruit only once. Or perhaps you want him to regain the recruit ability after he makes a sucessful kill. Personally, I'd just allow him to make a free military academy (most likely in your capital) and not even worry about recruitment. IF you somehow feel that an early Military Academy is too strong, then perhaps make them Tech Military Strat before Lucien can add a free Military Academy. Personally, I think its fine from turn 1.
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