The Emperor Series IV: Hannibal

[lymond]

@lymond

you're not entirely correct, from what I remember dalamb changed desert to plains tile a lot of the times and his doctrine involved having strategic for UU nearby.

well, i usually took the whole UU resource to mean he either rolled it or checked to make sure that there were resources. Anyway, regardless, I've got on dalamb a couple of times before for his map changes. And he's not going to give you grassland hill gold or grass wines.

 

[GGracchus]

A whole page on the benefits of cooking/changing the map...

Seriously, though, I think that if I changed a couple of deserts to plains/grassland and accidentaly turned a aluminium tile grassland it isn't all that big of a deal. If I do make edits, I'll put them in a spoiler: if I don't, then you won't see anything. Chances are though I'll make a couple of minor territorial edits to deserts, and it's your decision to play the map or not. The series is designed to help emperor players move to immortal and for immortal/deity to share their strategies, and having a plain where a desert was originally isn't going to make or break the game

 

[Capellan]

@lymond
Ah. Fair enough.

 

[NetGear]

Why are you changing those tiles though in the first place. Working with the tiles in place is part of the decision making in city plopping and working tiles. If everything was grassland there would be no thought process and wouldn't make for a good learning game.

Was the original start that bad to play?

 

[hankinsohl]

Thanks GGracchus for hosting this game!

My playthrough results at Emperor difficulty follow:

Spoiler :

I SIP to grab the 2 corn. Initial builds: worker warrior. Meanwhile my starting warrior scouts nearby land and finds that Sury and Justinian are both close. However, floodplains and gold are immediately to the north, permitting REX.

Tech path is: Agriculture, BW (to chop out settlers/workers - no copper nearby, ugh!), Hunting (for the Furs and to speed up AH), AH.

I quickly whip settlers and workers sending them north to grab the good land before it's too late. I skimp on barb protection since the AI is so close.

My REX yields 2 nice sites to the north, one nice site to the east and filler land to allow for 7 cities.

Since I'm Financial with marble nearby, I decide to pursue culture. I quickly open borders with everyone and build roads into Sury and Justinian while back-filling my cities.

Soon Charley appears. Everyone adopts Budhism and when it spreads to my land I follow suit.

I beeline Music, build the Sistine Chapel and then tech to Democracy. The diplomatic situation becomes touch-and-go when Sury founds Christianity and then converts. Briefly I'm Sury's worst enemy (my culture pressure on his borders doesn't help) but I gift him some tech and manage to get to cautious. Sury attacks Charley but the AP vote stops the engagement 2 turns later. Next Sury attacks Justinian but once again the AP intervenes. At this point, I'm very worried; surly I'm next. I try to throw together some semblance of an army, getting walls and crossbows on my border cities. I'm heavily outgunned though - if Sury attacks I'm doomed (unless the AP intercedes very quickly).

After 3 turns of this I can't stand it anymore and I switch out of Budhism to no religion. This brings Sury to cautious once more but now Charley and Justinian are cautious as well.

I manage to avoid battle, slowly building up diplomatic merits with Sury and Charley (but unfortunately, Justinian degrades to annoyed after repeated refusals to stop trading/join war), and go FS, FR once Democracy is in. I trade for Drama and crank up culture. Meanwhile I've spread Budhism, Judaism, Taoism and Christianity to all my cities, building temples everywhere and Cathedrals in my legendary cities. My capital, which was converted to a GPF, continues to crank out artists.

Eventually I win a cultural victory in 1917 AD with a score of 15,161. As I enjoy my victory, my crossbowmen stop to marvel at the tanks and infantry on parade next door!

 

[GGracchus]

Somebody played it!!

The original start wasn't bad, but for those of us trying to learn emperor I thought that a slightly easier(i.e putting in 5-10 grassland over desert) map would be easier to learn on. But, if there is really that much opposition, as soon as I roll a map who's BFC resources I like and we're not in isolation, I'll save it and post for the next one and all the others after that.

 

[FlyingSwan]

emporer to 1000BC

Spoiler :

built 4 citys and managed to crash the economydont know if il be able to sort this mess out with FIN cottages...but on the bright side there good blocking citys,the most interesting bieng Utica which has a triangle of water and two hills surrounding it which should be a good place to defend agaist Sury if he attacks(which usually happens at some point in my experience)

Went AGR,BW,Hunt,Arch,Myst,AH,Writ,Wheel,Pot.

View attachment TES IV BC-1000.CivBeyondSwordSave

1AD

Spoiler :

Economy recovered and running 107bpt.Charly,Sury and Justin are all diffrent religions,Justin asked me to convert to Budda which I did,he,s at pleased and Surys at annoyed.Looks like a wars a brewin.My only iron source is bieng threatened by 1 of Surys citys so I could be in for a tough ride unless I go HBR or Construction soon...View attachment TES IV AD-0001.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[hankinsohl]

@FlyingSwan

Spoiler :

emporer to 1000BC

Spoiler :

built 4 citys and managed to crash the economydont know if il be able to sort this mess out with FIN cottages...

Went AGR,BW,Hunt,Arch,Myst,AH,Writ,Wheel,Pot.

In my game, I was able to maintain a robust economy while REXing by prioritizing Pottery. My research went: Agriculture, BW, Hunting (immediately developed and worked the furs which helped tremendously), Mysticism, The Wheel, Pottery.

I almost never research Archery early on, doing so only if I'll be under a lot of barb pressure and only then if BW, and if applicable AH, fail to find nearby military resources. On this map my early exploration revealed 2 nearby AIs (so barb pressure wasn't going to be high) and, by developing AH immediately (I needed AH for my first site to the east to grab the pigs) after Myst I gave myself a chance to find nearby horses (which luckily paid off). Had I not found horses, I'd have risked limping by with warriors until Pottery was in at which point I'd research Archery only if my assessment about low barb pressure proved incorrect.

 

[FlyingSwan]

@hankinsohl

Spoiler :

your right of course with prioritising pottery,but in my game I settled blocking citys on excellent sites right next to Sury,I decided to go Writing 1st so I could get Librarys asap to get culture going.I managed to muddle through to Pottery next with GS.It was the distance from my cap that was causing probs.By 1AD I was back in shape.

Lib race won 1010AD-Democracy

Spoiler :

After bieng 1st to music and to the GLib I bulbed my way through to Lib,putting a bulb into it before I traded for Machinery.Put a Bulb in printing press and researched constitution(7 turns) and voila have taken Democracy.

The Taj gets finished in 2 turns when Il change civics.Justins at freindly,Sury refuses to talk,Charlies at cautious.Just waiting for the DOW.Good thing is Justin built the AP,hes got the head council so if war breaks out against me he may vote to stop it.Even so I can tech gunpowder next.View attachment TES IV AD-1010.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[GGracchus]

For all of you that are playing, only play at normal difficulty. I just realized that I forgot to allow for all game speeds, as I play exclusively at Normal. Please only play on normal, and it will be fixed for the new TES this sunday.Sorry.

 

[xenex]

Question.

Is the current map alsp doctored?I don't want to play if it is.

Also, why do I have to add archery to the barbs?I can understand that they turn it off in noble's club so all players above noble can also play, but since barbs have archery at emperor and above I don't see why it's turned off in the first place.Maybe I dont understand how this works, so if im wrong someone explain it to me.

 

[hankinsohl]

Question.
Also, why do I have to add archery to the barbs?

It's my understanding that there isn't a way to create Worldbuilder-format saves in which the Barbarians start with Archery.

 

[xenex]

Ahhh, now well that makes sense, then I understand it.

Makes you wonder why firaxis coded it that way, what possible reason could there be that if you make a WB save the game removes archery from the barbs, only thing I can think of is bad coding to start with, oh well.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Probably could have won this before 1000 AD if I tried. Learned that the Carthaginians are really, really good. Their UU is GOOD since it has a benefit that counters its counters: spears and swords. Add in Charismatic for fast promotions and +1 happiness, which allows more whipping! Then add in financial and a solid UB, and they're probably one of the best civs out there.

Everything kind of synergizes. In a 1v1, the Carthaginians would whoop Roman ass since their UU is a direct counter to the praetorian and their traits and UB are better.

Finally, add in some Rammstein in the background while at war, and it's sweet.

Also, nice start by the way. Lots of trees, food, hills. And other stuff.

Spoiler :

Emperor. Epic Speed.

Started with warrior, warrior, worker, warrior, warrior, warrior, warrior, settler. Stole a worker from the Khmer. Got Bronze Working, Wheel, Agriculture, Pottery, Writing, Alphabet! Then traded for Animal Husbandry and a bunch of basic techs with Justinian.

Pre-chopped all of the forests around my capital. Built a couple of cottages on the floodplains. In the meantime, I also got three more cities for a total of four (namely: capital, floodplain, gold, and rice). One of them was very near Justinian's second major city. Take a guess as to why that city was placed there.

Then when HBR and when the horse kicked in, it was Numidian Cavalry, Numidian Cavalry, Numidian Cavalry. Pre-chopping is AWESOME. It allows a MASSIVE surge of units precisely when you need it. The flanking bonus is nice since the troops keeps them alive. The first group softens them up. The second group does the killing.

It was a late horse rush, but since Numidian can beat spears and swords, I wasn't too worried about my opposition. As long as I have MORE than they, I'll win. And since I had those forests, and the whip....

Smashed Justinian. Then smashed the Khmer. The Khmer, btw, built the Great Wall and the Pyramids, which worked out well. Then I moved the Cavalry to a empty space near Charlemagne's capital and northern cities. Declared war, and took out their capital and two of their biggest cities. Made peace, at which point I had the Collosus, the Hindu Shrine, the Jewish Shrine, the Temple of Artemis, the Pyramids, and the GW with a Scotland Yard inside it. The only thing missing was the GLH.

Then once the economy recovered, I teched like crazy. Got Music first, the Great Library, Parthenon, Sistine Chapel, etc.. I delayed Liberalism to get Democracy, and Universal Suffrage, Emancipation, and Free Speech. Combine that with Carthaginian cottages = DEATH. It's 1400 AD and I'm teching every four-five turns. I literally have two times the tech of anyone else.

Just took out Charlemagne with cavalry in five turns (I took my time getting to Military Tradition).

The map makes it a little too easy. Consider a more difficult and/or random map next time. The choice of enemy civs is... kind of funny.

 

[ahcos]

Their UU is GOOD since it has a benefit that counters its counters: spears and swords.

Everything kind of synergizes. In a 1v1, the Carthaginians would whoop Roman ass since their UU is a direct counter to the praetorian and their traits and UB are better.

Regarding the Numidians, there was a little bit of discussion here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=419691

In short, they're bad.

In a 1n1, Praets are still ALOT stronger than Numidians, and Numidians are far from being a direct counter to Praets. The only thing that sort of counters Praets are Elephants, apart from that they're simply unchallenged in their timeframe.

Personally i like both Roman leaders better than Hannibal, but that's more of a personal flavour i guess. Overall they're pretty much even, but as soon as the Romans do have Iron they're far ahead easily.

 

[GGracchus]

xenex- this map is not doctored in any way. The choice of leaders is also random.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Regarding the Numidians, there was a little bit of discussion here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=419691

In short, they're bad.

In a 1n1, Praets are still ALOT stronger than Numidians, and Numidians are far from being a direct counter to Praets. The only thing that sort of counters Praets are Elephants, apart from that they're simply unchallenged in their timeframe.

Shock Numidians are superior to combat 1 Praets and you can get that with just a stable.

Also shock axes counter Praets just fine, which you can get with just a barracks with any aggressive civ.

And don't forget dog soldiers are about even with Praets.

 

[Noogai]

About the Numidian cavalry..
With stable you can give them Flanking II and so the one that ignores terrain movement costs as well. Could it be worth it to use those promotions? 50% melee is not that bad since it gives total 7,5 against spears, whose are the biggest enemy of HAs. Another possibility is to give them combat I, combat II/Shock + Flanking I, which is probably much better than my first suggestion. To me it doesn't look like that bad UU as everyone have said it is.

 

[lymond]

AZ - Hanny and Numidian rush might make a good next LP from you

 

[ahcos]

Shock Numidians are superior to combat 1 Praets and you can get that with just a stable.

Also shock axes counter Praets just fine, which you can get with just a barracks with any aggressive civ.

And don't forget dog soldiers are about even with Praets.

1. ... which still doesn't make Numidians a good counter vs. Praets, they're more expensive and you're forced to take shock, which makes them even worse vs. their biggest threat, archers. Not even accounting the fact that HBR is more expensive as a tech, is a dead end tech and HAs require Archery, and Stables require hammers aswell, but okay, after all you're right: Numidians are good vs. Praets, just like they're good vs. Spears. I have to admit that what i wrote is quite missleading. In direct comparison, Praets are easily > Numidians.

Simply put, you will not tech HBR for defense vs. Praets. Axes are just as good inside cities and alot cheaper, regardless of which civ you're playing. And personally i hate Numidians as offensive units, but one might disagree here.

2. That's no general counter, 85% of the leaders you'll play with random leader won't have any hard counter vs. Praets, except for mass siege and maybe Elephants.

3. Yep, that's one leader who can DEFEND vs. Praets (as if he'd need dogs for that with tripple promoted archers, but oh well). Mix an Archer into your city garrison and see the doggies die like flies on attack. Not even mentioning the fact that siege will massacre doggies, softening up their defense blablabla ~ I know that you know that, and you know that i know that you know, so whatever.

I didn't say that Praets = godmode, but i'm quite confident about the statement that they're unchallenged regarding their overall strength in the timeframe they appear. Bad enough they pretty much stand up vs. dog soldiers where a normal swordman would die without even scratching the dog.