the english bug affair

[Naokaukodem]

In Civfanatic GOTM 20, Deity difficulty, I canceled the peace treaty with the English in good form, when every units of mine was out of his territory and i had no other deal with him. I was prepared for an attack of the moron Zulus with their cavalry because they have declared war of me and english on the past, but when i see them to invade england i sent some troops there... to defend their towns of course, because english governement was taken over by me. But the only thing they found to thank me was to say to everybody, even the 4 guys on the other continent who with i had trades, that i was a kind of the worst treaty breaker of all the galaxy!? Well it's wrong, i didn't broke a peace treaty before 20 turns, i didn't trepass in their territory to attack (because after they may consider having a ROP with you and say it to everybody as well those morons). The result was that when Zulus went at last to attack, everybody refused in this continent to ally or MPP with my civ! They said that "oh, english told us you know" but there was no even any "english" on the map...! Zulus seem not to have the same problem, as my "fair trade allies" declared war on me and broke my $*%@#!! ressources and lux treaties! Well i had Celts and India as allies yet (MPP and alliance respectively), but well because soon tons of boats would have bombard my coasts and annoy me and riflemen invade my territory, this to a (very) incertain end... then i quited. Well what about English (i name them!) saying the whole world that I am a treaty broker when i just declared war because they were lame and unusefull (and arrogant), so that the whole game would react 'agressively' and MAKE ME LOSE? Is this a bug? Has this been corrected in Conquest?

 

[Megalou]

It rings a bell.

But what you don't say everything about in your post is the state of affairs when you first invaded England. (Sorry, see edit below) From my experience, you must not have any troops in your future enemy's territory before you declare war. If you do, they will consider it a contemptible sneak attack (wouldn't you?). This applies regardless of whether you had a right of passage with them or not.

It's surprising to me that you bring up such an old GOTM. Have you missed out on the last 10 GOTMs because of this? Nothing beats the comparison with other players & their strategy.

All things considered, I missed that same GOTM because of the wonderful Swedish summer, so let's keep everything in perspective, and I mean everything, even if this is a bug the way you see it.

Edit: Sorry, I did not read your post carefully enough. You may be right to consider this a bug outright, unless the very declaration of war deserves that kind of suspicion from the other AI.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Thank you for your answer Megalou.

It's surprising to me that you bring up such an old GOTM. Have you missed out on the last 10 GOTMs because of this?

Nah... I just began the GOTM recently from the 16th, because i had problems with installations packs before, it is to say when i had some patch issue with many differents versions available. (I have a french version of Civ3 and an erm.. "english" version of Conquest, but i like this language ) Now that i have got familiar with the GOTM tutorials, i may be able to install surely the GOTM packs and go on the "real competition", but well, i just try to get more experience for now, playing and submitting virtually. Well, what's the difference, a GOTM is a GOTM, and i prefer to submit "bad" scores virtually than really for now, we can see it like that. About discussions about it, i don't like the idea of picking some from other players as it is a part of the fun to go our own way. Even if Civ3 is quite of a "flat" game where the minor decisions may be important in nature. Finally i'm not fond of the differences like how upgrading from horses to cav instead from knights to cav can be benefitfull because it is based on game internal details wich are not really a part of the gameplay as i can see it for now. I already learned soon by myself that unit upgrade was just like half the cost of rushing them which can add to the importance of upgrades in the game, knowing that they dispense any additional construction in addition of course. I mean upgrades cannot be replaced by rushes for example.

About the english bug, well no i hadn't any troops in their territory. maybe i just broke a triple military alliance when zulus, india and ottoman was in outnumber in my territory, then i just make peace, but that was long ago, so i doubt it could be that. And well, this thing being a game cutter later, i feel it stupid. And no, anyway it was not this because i could have trade with the other continent already, so i would say it is definitively this peace treaty negociation and maybe the kill. Well, who knows... anyhow, that AIs moans anything we may not understand on a rude tone insulting the player is not new, and this add only one thing to their list. Maybe i'm just fooled by their representations of prides faces after all, forgetting that they are just creap and must be killed in any circumstances. But i don't like the idea of trading with foes. Even an AI should respect me if so!!

 

[stormbind]

Well, I have had worse (in non-GOTM)

City in enemy territory lit up as though I controlled it, but I didn't... and everytime someone attacked it, they were instantly at war with me! So I was in perpetual war with everyone because of a city I couldn't even get to...

Game just messes up sometimes.

 

[Megalou]

OK, lets look at this afresh with the arrival of Conquests at GOTM!

I will describe two scenarios that illustrate what I believe to be the most common way to mess up your reputation. I don't think you made this mistake, Naokaukodem, but I still think it is worth mentioning since it is not completely logical and consequently easy to miss.

So here are my two scenarios. They are taken from the same game, starting on the same turn, 70 BC, and the differences between them are in bold print.

1.
70 BC - I have assembled a dozen swordsmen in a town that shares a border with Washington. I want to conquer America and start with the capital. I have no Right or passage deal with America, nor any other deal except a peace treaty that has expired. In this first scenario, I move the swordsmen onto a hill within the borders of Washington.
50 BC - During the interturn America says: "Remove your forces from our territory or declare war!" I declare war and move a step closer to Washington.
30 BC - I capture Washington. Next, I attempt to sign a Right of passage with Maya. But "They would never accept such a deal."

2.
70 BC - I have assembled a dozen swordsmen in a town that shares a border with Washington. I want to conquer America and start with the capital. I have no Right or passage deal with America, nor any other deal except a peace treaty that has expired. In this second scenario, I declare war now. Then I move my swordsmen onto a hill within the borders of Wasington.
50 BC - My troops move one step closer to Wasington.
30 BC - I capture Washington. Next, I attempt to sign a Right of passage with Maya and "This deal will probably be acceptable."

My conclusion is that if you want your reputation clean, you may not have troops in enemy territory when you declare war on the, even if you don't have a right of passage with them.

 

[alamo]

What if in WWII the Japanese declaration of war had been deciphered and delivered to the president just before the attack on pearl harbor? Would we not still say it was a sneak attack?

The things under your control are valid rep hits. What are not valid and extremely annoying are those capture/pillages halfway across the world that break your trade deals.

The tangle of MPP's can also be a bit annoying. You could have MPP's with everyone, but one false offensive move and they all declare war on you. If you and your (intended) enemy have MPP's with other civs then declare war and WAIT for your enemy to attack your territory to trigger the MPP's.

 

[Megalou]

I did say "not completely logical". The rep hit caused by ROP abuse is what I would call completely logical. One could stress the fact that the US didn't know about the attack on Pearl Harbour. The AI always see you & asks your stack to turn back right away, so there is nothing to gain from moving into the territory before declaring.