The Forgoten War...

[Sodak]

At this rate, somebody will confuse the Anjouans with the Italians...

 

[joespaniel]

I just saw on CNN that the 10th Mountain Division from Ft. Drum NY is deploying to Tajikistan for operation Enduring Freedom.

I am a Somolia veteran and I served in the 10th as a member of the QRF in Mogadishu July-December 1993. My battalion fought to rescue the Army Rangers on October 3rd.

If anyone wants to write to the troops overseas you can address a letter to " any soldier " c/o your local USO. Believe me, its nice to get letters from home when your "over there".

Anyway, as far as Korea, I know my battalion, 2/14 Infantry faught at Heatbreak Ridge with the Marines, and at Hamburger Hill. Both very bloody battles. Our guidon flag had battle streamers for those places.

I believe Korea was refered to as the forgotten war after it ended with no clear winner, no real change in Korea itself and Americans tried to put it behind them at the time. It was kind of humiliating after the great victory of WWII less than a decade earlier.

Today there is a great monument to the veterans of Korea on the Mall in Washingto DC, I visited it earlier this year. It seems that recently people want to know more about the war. I think that in itself is a great tribute to all the soldiers who faught there from all countries. They are not forgotten.

And to Spycatcher34, your very welcome!

 

[PinkyGen]

MacArthur was either a great or lousy general depending on what side of the bed he got up on the morning. One of the most irregular generals ever.

On one hand, he has had some brilliant campaigns, such as the defense of New Guinea and the landings at Inchon.

On the other hand, he lost the Phillipines even though he had more planes and troops than the Japanese, and he was completely outsmarted by the Chinese when they got involved in Korea.

:crazyeyes

 

[allan]

"I read yesterday in one of the British newspapers that on an island called Anjouan between Mozambique and Madagascar, there have been 24 coups in the last 24 years."

I read somewhere that as of the 1980s, Bolivia has averaged one coup every 9 MONTHS over the course of its history since independence. Don't know if that's still the case though, I read it sometime in the 80s. Seems that's their regular form of government change, so coups aren't really newsworthy there....

Anjouan? Haven't heard of it as an independent country--is it the main island of the Comoros, or is it disputed between Mozambique and Madagascar?

 

[mrog]

Hi All,

There is a movie (I think it's called The Survivors) in which a charactor played by Walther Matthaw says he was in the big war- Korea. His interlocutorutor says "Korea wasn't big", to which he replies "It was to me".

Anyway my father served in Korea in the British Army. He was there during the time the UN line was broken by the Chinese- he has lots of interesting stories. Once, just after I started shaving, I was using an old shaving brush from the back of the bathroom cupboard. My dad saw me and told me where it came from. It was from a deceased U.S soldier. Apparently on a number of occasions (I don't know how many) my father's unit came across groups of GIs who had been killed after their sentries had dozed off or lost concentration.

I put the brush back where I found it.

 

[starlifter]

On the other hand, he lost the Phillipines even though he had more planes and troops than the Japanese, and he was completely outsmarted by the Chinese when they got involved in Korea.

If you read the dispatchs and examine the history, and Roosevelt's plan, you'll find the PI, along with Guam, Wake, and lots of other lesser know places were sacrificed by Roosevelt and the Joint Chiefs. The PI was promised immediate aid which never came, for various reasons. MacArthur's troops and planes were vastly outnumbered by the bloodthirsty Japanese, and sadly, the equipemnt of the Japanese was also superior to that which was rationed to Mac Arthur in the PI.

As for the Chinese, Mac Arthur was not allowed to have a free hand in accomplishing the military objectives. Truman was personally responsible for the needless slaughter of tens of thousands of Americans. Few Presidents in history have been as incompetent as Truman, as the documented record of memoranda that Truman tried hard to cover up has come to light over the last 20 years.

The American military should have been allowed to dispose of the Red Threat in Korea after the dastardly sneak attack by the evil Red Chinese. Truman should have been removed from office, tried for cowardice in the face of the enemy, and handed the appropriate punishment for treason and betrayal of the nation in wartime.

Mac Arthur warned what the consequences of Truman's actions would be.... years of death with no hope of victory. To this day, the Korean war has not ended. I've served in Korea to help contain the Red menace, and relatives of mine have died at the hands of the evil Red Chinese for maltreatment in the evil Red Chinese POW camps. Mac Arthur was the most brilliant military mind of the 20th century, despite the latter day historical revisionists and Truman apologists.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I thought General MacArthur wanted to nuke the cities of Manchuria and northern China cos of the Chinese 'volunteers' participating in the attack on US-led UN forces in Korea and was removed from command by President Truman? Apparently the President didn't want America's hands to be soiled by the blood of tens of millions of civilian deaths, not so soon after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

He also wanted to invade Manchuria. President Truman concluded that the risk wasn't worth it and overruled him on that as well. At that time, China was allied with the Soviet Union and it would meant war with the two Communist powers. And the Soviets had just gotten their A-bomb.

Well, that's my understanding. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

But General MacArthur did a good job with Japan after WW2 during the US Occupation. Led to democracy and is now a strong, stable but militarily-crippled power. But unlike Germany, Japan never took up responsibility for their war. So the Occupation left something out.

 

[starlifter]

I thought General MacArthur wanted to nuke ...

Mac Arthur's assessment of the Chinese and his ability to defeat them if they attacked was predicated on the ability to use the might of American strength to defeat an dastardly and downright evil enemy who chose to engage in war and kill Americans. Truman is the first President in the history of America to deny an American army in the field the means to fight and win a war, yet force it to continue to fight with no intention of winning. Some European nations had this mindset in the past, but not America.

BTW, three presidents since Truman also bear the stain of dishonor and betrayal.... Kennedy (to a limited extent), Johnson (from my own home state ), and our only draft-dodger President, Clinton.

People often fixate on the nuclear question and hypotheticals, and some Truman "supporters" can get hysterical when discussing the issues... but the historical and unbiased documented record of memos, telexes, cables, meeting minutes... and Truman's subsequent cover up of embarrassing documentation (e.g., removal of information concerning his nuclear decisions and placement of key information in small locked boxes given to other people, like his female secretary, who had them for decades until discovered)... it is worth reading, but quite boring to do so.

It might suprise some people to know that Truman pretty much stood alone in wanting to use the Atom bomb against the Japanese.... Mac Arthur was specifically apalled that it was used against civilian-only targets, and did not approve of such employment.... further, there was absolutely no military necessity for it. The japanese, as we now know, had been planning to surrender since the Fall of 1944. In the April of 1945, the new American President Truman secretly turned down Japanese offer of surrender (thru diplomatic back channels) becuase the Japanese had one condition... that the Emperor survive. Truman restated publically "un-conditional surrender", and tens of thousands of American soldiers continued to die unnecessarily from late April of 1945 to August of 1945. That blood is on Truman's hands, alone. Only he wanted war, and his personal "pride" and stupid public dogma prevented peace. Make no mistake.... Truman's was the most monsterous treachery an American President can commit.

The ultimate betrayal was sealed when Truman finally accepted teh Japanese Surrender..... do you recall the terms? Unconditional... EXCEPT that the Emperor survive. All the dead, and unimaginable suffering by MILLIONS from April of 1945 to late August of 1945, plus millions killed in firebombings and hundreds of thousands incinerated in nuclear fireballs... for what? No net change in the victory and surrender conditions. Appalling.

If a person were to read the actual records of the decision to use nukes on Japan, almost every military advisor was opposed.... almost every cabinet official was opposed. Japan was in no position to continue the was, but Truman was obsessed with getting Stalin into the war by July 1945.

So this is the backdrop for the Chinese nuclear question. Mac Aurthur certainly wanted, and naturally expected, the full support of his Commander In Chief for American Soldiers engaged in a difficult war. Truman was obscessed with the possibility of Chinese intervention.... heck, with a coward like Truman in command, America should have just backed up and gone home from Europe and Asia, and burrowed into a cave, quaking with fear.

The choice of war was made by the Chinese. They should have paid the price with unrestricted conventional attacks by the US. But Truman would not support those underhis command... the average American soldier. He refused time and again to allow the military to do its job... bear in mind, up to 1951, no American President had refused a Supreme Commander the ability to fight, attack, and defend itself. This was a first in history (and set the stage for similar incompetant Presidential meddling a decade later).

Everyone, but EVERYONE, knew the Chinese could, by force of sheer number, overwhelm the Korean penninsula if they so chose. When the Chinese saw that Truman was a coward, quaking in his indecisive boots, they took the opportunity and attacked. They knew Truman better than Mac Arthur in the nuclear question... with no permission to counterattack the source of the evil Red Chinese army, and no permission for even tactical use of nukes on military units, Mac Arthur was pretty darned pissed that HIS men were being slaughtered by the evil Red Chinese.

Did Mac Arthur want to kill civilians? No. Would civilians get killed? Most definately. Whose fault would that be? Directly, the Chinese for attacking -- sneak attacking -- America. Indirectly, Truman's... for sending the signal to the evil Red Chinese to attack and begin slaughtering American and South Korean people.

Conventional bombing was what Mac Arthur wanted... he wanted to lay waste to all the sources of resupply, communication, troops, etc. In short, he was fighting a war, and Truman was playing a sick and disgusting game. Mac Arthur was trying to end a war and save lives, and Truman was (as usual) betraying America and it's fighting men in the field.

It is absurd to think that a President would allow tens of thousands of Americans to get killed, and not even unleash the US Military on the source of the killers. Even if the Atomic Bomb decision rested with the President, Truman had no business meddling in the actual conduct of the war... keep in mind that even Lincoln was not telling his generals what hills to attack, what bridges to take, etc. In all of American history to that point, no American general had been denied the use of it's military in the field to win a war. For students of military history, Truman's actions were and are shocking and unprecedented, and I'm sure Mac Arthur was quite incensed... and he had a right to be. As an American, I'm still apalled that our President comitted nothing less treason and cowardice in the face of the enemy, in wartime. Tens of thousands dead. And the war never won...

 

[Magnus]

Originally posted by starlifter

BTW, three presidents since Truman also bear the stain of dishonor and betrayal.... Kennedy (to a limited extent), Johnson (from my own home state ), and our only draft-dodger President, Clinton.

I smell a Republican

 

[.:KNAS:.]

you dont write short posts do u starlifter?

i dont disagree with the use of the a bomb, but it could have been used on remote military installations, but that wouldnt intimidate the people of japan as easily.

there is a saying in sweden:

he who joins the game must suffer the consequenses of the game
i think it fits in nicely here.

something also tells me u dont like chinese people? (or their goverment)

 

[PinkyGen]

Heh, err... interesting posts Starlifter.

1. The Japanese were not willing to be occupied. The military had an effective veto over surrender, and they wanted to keep on fighting. It took the two bombs to quiet the military and actually have the Emperor personally intervene into ending the conflict. Even after the two bombs, there were a few attempts at a coup to keep on fighting.
As for MacArthur, he severely underestimated the Japanese defenses for his invasion. He was even ignoring some of his own intelligence. Also, Truman received support from advisors and special committees to use the bomb.

2. Nuking China would have widened the war into WWIII, something Truman did not want, as this would kill far more people than the actions in Korea. Even just bombing inside China would have widened the war (and not would not have stopped them).

3. I shall ignore the assertion that Kennedy's overseeing the Cuban Missile Crisis instead of Curtis LeMay was a bad idea.
Agree on the point with Johnson, shall remind all that Bush Jr. dodged service in Vietnam as well (as well as my father, by staying in college and not graduating early).

 

[starlifter]

you dont write short posts do u starlifter?

i dont disagree with the use of the a bomb, but it could have been used on remote military installations, but that wouldnt intimidate the people of japan as easily.

My post missed its mark, then.... I used to firmly believe in the US use of nukes against Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I have spent lots of time in Japan in the 1990's. But after reading the actual records (copies of them), I was shocked to learn the full nature of Truman's deceptions and coverups. It was Truman himself that "invented" the "1,000,000" casualty for Operation Olympic.... AFTER the war... in an attempt to justify his actions which he began to realize were indefensible in terms of the Soviets, Japanese, and in particular, the use of Atomic weapons. Most sources put the estimate of US casualties in the invasion of the japenese homeland at around 78,000. One source went as high as 250,000. Marshall believed around 100,000. After the nuking, Truman began to realize that others would judge him harshly, and began to systematicall alter the records, and hide key documents. Most of these documents have now been recovered. They reveal many things, including the fact the Air Force did not want to nuke H & N... they were civilian targets of no direct military consequence.

Despite decades of propaganda, the facts are that Truman unnecessarily nuked the Japs.... the only roadblock to a japanese surrender was Truman himself. And the surrender he finally accepted was the same surrender he had dissed in April. So other than killing lots more Americans (not to mention allies and Japanese), and double-nuking a country, not much was accomplished by the 5 month delay.

That Truman willfully and methodically covered up and distorted (thru press leaks) his own culpability only makes things worse. And it played a direct role in how he handled the Korean War.

You should research the decisions leading to the use of the Bomb... the reality of recorded and written history is very different than what many latter-day Truman apologists would have the public believe. And Truman's decisions and actions are a shamful, but relatively unknown, part of American history.

Of course, the rest of Truman's record is not much better... a Divided and occupied Europe... millions killed and executed after the war (mostly by Truman's ally, the evil USSR), a world split, A war fought with no intention of victory, cowardice in the face of a wartime enemy.... rarely has such a despicable Commander in Chief ever occupied the Presidency.... until Bill Clinton, who must still take 2nd place to Truman for sheer numbers of US servicemen needlessly killed.

there is a saying in sweden:

he who joins the game must suffer the consequenses of the game
i think it fits in nicely here.

I spend a lot of time with family and relatives in Sweden, but haven't heard that one. I'm not Swedish, and can't speak much Swedish, though.

something also tells me u dont like chinese people? (or their goverment)

I am aware that in this hyper-sensitive age of extreme political correctness some people might interpret my absolute abhorrance of the evil Red Chinese as somehow being applied to the Chinese. But you will note that long phrase, "evil Red Chinese" when referring to the monsters that enslave and kill the Chinese people. In fact, I have much respect for the Chinese civilization and Chinese people... it the the evil Red Chinese that should be rooted out and exterminated. The Evil Red Chinese even kill and oppress their own people, the Chinese people. The evil Red Chinese are even now developing nuclear platforms that can deliver thermonuclear devices tot he United States mainland. A few years ago , they obtained the capability to strike Hawaii and parts of Alaska, when President Clinton and VP Gore broke US law and betrayed the nation by giving the evil Red Chinese the guidance technology and certain other technology to improve the delivery paltrofms for weapons of mass destruction. Judas' price for betrayal was 30 pieces of silver. Clinton and Gore's price was a few bucks and evil Red Chinese support for the '96 re-election campaign.

 

[starlifter]

2. Nuking China would have widened the war into WWIII, something Truman did not want, as this would kill far more people than the actions in Korea. Even just bombing inside China would have widened the war (and not would not have stopped them).

Sheer speculation. But the decision was not ours... it was that of the evil Red Chinese. They chose to attack and kill US people... not the other way around. Please state the number of US lives you are willing to allow the evil Red Chinese to snuff out before you are willing to stand up for what is right and defend yourself.

For me, I am willing to destroy an entire enemy army that sneak-attacks even one of my Soldiers. If America neede to gear up and stomp out the evil Red Chinese inthe 1950s, then we should have obliged them. The aggressors were the evil Red Chinese, not the defenders of the free world, American.

We fought the Korean War with our hands tied behind our back, and I'm not just referring to nukes.... we should have laid waste to the evil Red Chinese forces, and their havens and harbors of refuge and support. America has no desire to "take over" China, any more than it took over Japan (the mother of all Sneak Attacking nations). But I damn sure won't tolerate the evil Red Horde killing American soldiers. Period. OUR WORDS ARE BACKED WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS!

3. I shall ignore the assertion that Kennedy's overseeing the Cuban Missile Crisis instead of Curtis LeMay was a bad idea.

At least Kennedy betrayed the Cubans at the Bay of Pigs. He (metaphorically) bent over, dropped his pants, and asked the Soviets to rape him. When the Soviets complied by putting missiles in Cuba (they already had nukes on Subs off our shores, remember)... American reaction forced Kennedy to finally act. The result of wiggling out of the mess he created was OK in the end, but America should never have been in that position. Soviet leaders interviewed in the last 15 years have now confirmed that their perception of Kennedy was as a weak, pathetic leader, and they underestimated the corner he was backed into as a result of the missiles. This is a classic lesson in how weak, morally bankrupt leadership and betrayal of your friends can almost cause the destruction of much of the world. Had someone of even lower intelligence and ability than the already marginal Kennedy been in charge, like Truman, the results would likely have been catastrophic for the nation.

So thank you Kennedy for allowing a Communist government to exist in the western hemisphere. James Monroe must be turning over in his grave.

1. The Japanese were not willing to be occupied. The military had an effective veto over surrender, and they wanted to keep on fighting. It took the two bombs to quiet the military and actually have the Emperor personally intervene into ending the conflict. Even after the two bombs, there were a few attempts at a coup to keep on fighting.
As for MacArthur, he severely underestimated the Japanese defenses for his invasion. He was even ignoring some of his own intelligence. Also, Truman received support from advisors and special committees to use the bomb.

You are not in possession of all the facts, in this particular case. A review of the historical documents will shed more light on a subject of much propaganda that eminated from no less than the American President (Truman).

The US diplomacy in the last months of the war is ratehr obsure today, which is fine. Yes, there were elements in Japan that wanted to fight on... but the high-level Japanese discussions about ending the war began in late summer of 1944, as we now know. And Truman was pretty insecure as the new President (he knew he was not very inteligent), and got himself into a fix concerning the "Uncondtional Surrender" BS.... the Japanese were willing to fight on if their emperor would not be spared. In the end, we did just that.... we agreed to spare their emperor in exchange for surrender... e.g., "Unconditional Surrender" became "Conditional Surrender" after all.

Mac Arthur did not understimate the Japanese... his staff was still planning the invasion when the Bombs were dropped. Truman did get support from a few sources for the Bomb... but the majority recommended the bomb not be employed, esp. in the way we did. Most leaders were shocked at what Truman did, and truman spent a lot of the rest of his life trying to shift the facts and justify the decision while later claiming he would not do it again.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Starlifter, while I have the greatest respect for your posts (esp about Civ), have you ever wondered why the Chinese entered the Korean War? It's cos a hostile army was marching up right up to its borders. Hostile cos the Americans were arming its Nationalist enemies just a couple of years before during the last phase of the Chinese civil war (1946-49).
In spite of all the diplomatic feelers the Chinese put out thru India (one of the few countries to recognise the PRC - the Americans refused to have anything to do with the "evil Red Chinese"), the army came on and on. Having no choice, they would have to respond. In force.
An equivalent would be a Soviet army marching up the Baja penisular in Mexico, closing in on California. You would have responded in force too.
And the Commies had a lot of support from the Chinese people (even the middle class) in the early days. Cos when the Nationalists returned to their own territories in the Yangzi valley and elsewhere, and although the resident Chinese greeted them enthusiastically as liberators, the Guomindang began to terrorize them cos they 'collaborated' with the Japs during the war. Executions, 'nationalization' of properties, prison etc.
So when the Commies beat the Nationalists out of China, the Chinese middle classes welcomed them. That support evaporated during the stupid Mao projects (the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution).
Bet you didn't know that?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

"For me, I am willing to destroy an entire enemy army that sneak-attacks even one of my Soldiers. If America neede to gear up and stomp out the evil Red Chinese inthe 1950s, then we should have obliged them. The aggressors were the evil Red Chinese, not the defenders of the free world, American. "

The Commies couldn't declare war anyway - they weren't the recognized legitimate govt of China. Esp not by the Americans. And they didn't want to really go to war with America, so they were only sending 'voluteers' to fight. Yes I know, it's all sickening legalese but the Chinese and Americans kept up the fiction so that Korean War would not escalate into WW3. The Soviets were already sending in their MiGs to help I think.

I think General MacArthur underestimated the Chinese 'peasant' troops. He was still remembering them as the useless, poorly equipped, untrained irregular forces who couldn't deal with the Japs in WW2 in home territory (just 5-6 years before). However the Chinese Red Army had become much more experienced and better-armed after the Japs surrendered in China and thru the course of the civil war. The last few battles of the civil war were large affairs fought with conventional means i.e. no guerilla warfare, involving millions of troops on both sides.

The Commies chose to use guerilla warfare and irregular tactics in Korea cos they didn't want an official war with America. Plus they weren't that good enough to send, support and supply huge conventional forces in foreign countries anyway.

 

[starlifter]

Starlifter, while I have the greatest respect for your posts (esp about Civ), have you ever wondered why the Chinese entered the Korean War? It's cos a hostile army was marching up right up to its borders.

Completely irrelevant. Using that logic, Russia and Chna should have been utterly nuked and destroyed in 1945 for exceeding their borders and approaching others.

It is the very definition of evil for the evil Red Chinese to sneak attack and kill with no direct aggression. The US was not invading China. In fact, even after China sneak attacked, the US did not invade china, or eve allow air operations against China. In fact, the yellow staned bastard Truman would not even allow US Fighters to pursue attacking MiGs into China. The US had every right to not only pursue, but to lay waste to the airbases WITHIN China. But it did not.

So it is the height of Red propaganda to suggest that the evil Red Chinese had "No Choice" but to sneak attack and kill Americans. America was not attacking China... the evil Red Chinese were and are the devils in the conflict. Eliminate the evil Red Chinese (and their lap dogs in North Korea), and there is no more conflict, only peace.

Hostile cos the Americans were arming its Nationalist enemies just a couple of years before during the last phase of the Chinese civil war (1946-49).

Totally irrelevant to the evil Red Chinese sneak attack. The evil Red Chinese had absolutely no business... none... killing Americans in North Korea. The United States had and still has the moral and ethical right to squash the evil Red Chinese menace.

In spite of all the diplomatic feelers the Chinese put out thru India (one of the few countries to recognise the PRC - the Americans refused to have anything to do with the "evil Red Chinese"), the army came on and on. Having no choice, they would have to respond.

Such a load of crap.... the evil Red Chinese-backed North Koreans attempted to exterminate all Americans and South Koreans with a violent sneak attack to begin the Korean War. The evil Red Chinese wanted S. Korea dead and gone.... the US Stood Up for S. Korea against the evil Red Menace and was on the verge of eradicating the evil "North Korean" dictatorship and reunifying Korea to a peaceful nation, when the evil Red Chinese attacked the forces of good. Make no mistake at all... the Korean War was and STILL IS a was of freedom and good (America nd teh Free Wrold) against the forces of evil and darkness (the evil Red Chinese and their lapdogs). Pure and simple.

"Having no choice" as you say is unbelievably apologetic for such a monsterous act as what the evil Red Chinese perpetrated. You don't back down from evil... you root it out and destroy it, especially when the evil attacks you. Less than 10 years before, Americans were fighting and dying for and in China.... before the Evil Reds took over. The evil Red Chinese were and still are vicious, murdering thugs deserving of a bayonnette in their throats. Just to be clear... this comment is not about the vast majority of Chinese, but it is about the minority of Evil Red Chinese in China, who happen to control China in an icy grip to this day.

In force.
An equivalent would be a Soviet army marching up the Baja penisular in Mexico, closing in on California. You would have responded in force too.

An absurd example. But for your information, a communist government dedicated to the destruction of Democracy (and ALL other forms of govenment, as all Communism is) was illegally estabilshed in Cuba, and the US did not respond with force of arms, even though the US has the international law on its side to do so (the evil Red Chinese did not have the legal right to sneak attack the US and kill Americans in Korea).

So no, the US did NOT respond as the evil Red Chinese did, even when it had the right to and Red China did not!

Peace in Korea = All Reds Dead

 

[starlifter]

I think General MacArthur underestimated the Chinese 'peasant' troops. He was still remembering them as the useless, poorly equipped, untrained irregular forces who couldn't deal with the Japs in WW2 in home territory (just 5-6 years before).

LOL, in all honesty, I could write volumes in this area, and would never get out of this thread... why? Because I've spent hundreds of hours and many years studying events of this era, and the US invlovement in particular.

Any short summation does the actual history an injustice, but that's all I have time for right now. A mistake many people today make when studying history is nor understanding the context of a given time. In this case, Mac Arthur was the Supreme Commander and fully expected to be able to use all the allied military force available to accomplish the military objective. Against the likely Chinese Irregulars, he had every expectation to destroy them, if they managed attack. But at critical military junctures, the means to slow or stop the evil Red Chinese was denied to the commander in the field by the Commander in Chief, AKA Coward In Chief. This was the first time in US Military history that a commander engaged in battle was systematically denied the ability to defeat the enemy by his own President. Vietnam and Somalia had not occurred yet.

For example, it is accepted practice to pursue and destroy an aggressor. The JCS and Truman begrudingly gave Mac Arthur permission to do that... but when Mac Arthur had trapped the evil aggressors near the Yalu river, Truman denied him the accepted military option of destroying the supply/retreat bridges. Further, Truman created safe enclaves (or "havens" ) for the remorseless enemy. And Truman also forbid US fighers from defending themselves, even when in hot pursuit, of the soviet manned, chinese marked MiGs as the attakced and killed Americans and the fled north to their "safe haven". A reasonable military response would frankly have been nuclear obliteration of any and all the evil Red Chinese military bases. Conventional obliteration would be less effective and cost more American blood to do the job, but that was disallowed, too.

I could go on, but when a commander in the field has to fight a monsterously evil enemy in the field, be mocked and insulted by his own commander in Washington, and denied the ability to even defend the lives of his army (much less proceed to final victory)....

So no, Mac Arthur did not underestimate the Chinese soldier... but he was betrayed and repeatedly stabbed in the back by Truman. However, the ones that paid the price for Truman's vain and petty actions was not mac Arthur, but the Americans, Allies, and even evil Red Chinese who lost their lives and were wounded.

 

[PinkyGen]

Heh, this is turning into a fun thread.

1. Quickly on the Kennedy thing. When Castro took power (against an oppressive dictator we were supporting), Eisenhower was President. Eisenhower's CIA were the one's who thought up that incredibly bad idea that was Bay of Pigs. When Kennedy took power, he did not know very much about the Bay of Pigs. He allowed it because the CIA said it was going to work, and that Eisenhower was going to allow it.
Of course, it was a bad idea, even if the US had given air support. If we wanted Castro out, then it would have required use of our own forces. But such a blatant invasion of Cuba would have given loads of propoganda ammunition to the Soviet Union of the "imperialist" US, putting down a popular revolution (and it was a somewhat popular revolution) of the Cuban people. Not a good thing when trying to convince the world to support you and not the Soviets.

2. With the casaulty figures, the US really did not know what the casaulties were going to be. Some operations against the Japanese had relatively few US casaulties (Philipines). However, the if the US had encountered the fanatic defenders of Iwo Jima and Okinawa, there would have been a lot of US deaths (maybe not a million, but a large number. I wrote a paper on this in the 11th grade)
Also, the US horribly underestimated Japanese forces in the invasion area. We estimated around 625,000 men, when in reality they had around 900,000. They had large numbers of suicide boats and midget submarines, and over 1,000 kamikazes.
So if we had invaded, there would have been a lot of casaulties, far more than if we used the bombs. (Which also killed Japanese, and not our own soldiers.)

Now the question is whether the Japanese government was going to surrender or not. A large part of the Japanese government did not want to surrender, but the army and navy did not, and they held effective veto power over any surrender. (Also, even if the mainland government had surrendered, their was no guarantee that army units in Japanese occupied lands would have obeyed.) It took the emperor, the use of two A-bombs, and the Soviet invasion of Manchuria (which shocked the Japanese, and was every bit as useful and needed as the use of the bombs.)
Once again, even with all this, some elements of the army still tried a coup.

Also, Truman was using unconditional surrender because that was what Churchill and Roosevelt declared after their Algiers conference. The possible Japanese surrender terms were far more than just keeping the emperor. They wanted a Versailles, with no ocupation.

3. I'll admit, I am not an expert on the Korean war. However, I don't think expanding the war into China (which would have gotten the Soviets even more involved) would have been a good idea. Truman had a choice of high probability of war with China and Soviet Union (and renewed warfare in Europe), or the limited fighting in Korea.

PS. Truman did not surrender Europe, if anyone did that, it was Roosevelt at Yalta. The only real way to stop this domination would have been to go war with the Soviet Union in order to expel the Red Army. Keep in mind the most destructive 6 year (4 for US) conflict had just been concluded.

Truman helped form NATO and the containment policy, (which worked, such as helping Greece defeat communist rebels.)


Thus sayeth the dirty commie pinko.

 

[joespaniel]

Joe Stalin betrayed his 'evil Red' allies right before the Chinese attack into N. Korea. He promised Mao fighter support from the USSR and backed down at the last minute. Supposedly Mao had a nervous breakdown.

Obviously some Russians did fly in the Korean War, but not full scale like origionaly planned.

Another (twisted) point of view, Starlifter, is that the communist North Korea asked the 'evil Red Chinese' commies for aid in repelling western aggression (never mind they started the war), like the South Koreans did of the US. That was the 'evil Red' version of things at the time.

I agree, in hindsite, that the US should have bombed 'evil Red' troop staging areas in China as well as airbases. They got off too easy. Truman really was a weenie.

About the more recent scandal involving Clinton, Starlifter, where is your source about China getting missle guidence tech? I don't disbelieve you, but I thought they stole that along with our MIRV secrets in the spy scandal. I would like to see that very much.

I was, and still am, inclined to think we should have done more to China re: the spying at Los Alamos. Once again, they got off too easy.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Starlifter, maybe you're right, maybe you aren't; I don't know anymore. You do sound very convincing. Actually I am not very clear on the US side in the Korean War, so I apolgise for any informational error on my part.

But you can blame all the evil Red Chinese mess on the evil Japanese imperialist militarists. Had they not invaded China, the Nationalists would not have lost their best assets (trained administrators, best military units, key tax revenues etc) and would have eventually consolidated their hold over all of China. Imagine a Taiwan today the size of China.