The Forgoten War...

Starlifter, maybe you're right, maybe you aren't; I don't know anymore. You do sound very convincing. Actually I am not very clear on the US side in the Korean War, so I apolgise for any informational error on my part.
No need to apologize... everyone has a right to an opinion, and even those that may not agree with mine. It is ironic that for years I took the major military books at face value concerning the "1,000,000" casualties as justification for attacking the Japs with the Bomb. I've spent many a Hiroshma and Nagasaki anniversary in Japan, and was more than willing to explain how they should be grateful for our nuking them to their senses.

However, the real memos, records, meeting minutes, personal letters of Truman, etc. show the real story which I've only begun to learn in the last 3 or so years. Mac Arthur understood teh Japanese and the "eastern mind" more than any other major Allied commander, and it is fortunate for the Japanese that Mac Arthur was their conqueror.

But the nuking of Japan was unnecessary, and quite prideful. Most people, especially western people, simply have no understanding of Japan of 1945, much less the military disposition or the weight of the will of the Emperor. The war was over and would have ended, had Truman had a grasp of things. But its not his fault and I don't condemn him for being an unintelligent, short-sighted, vain individual. However, even a Forrest Gump is expected to keep faith and loyalty with the American fighting man.

Joe Stalin betrayed his 'evil Red' allies right before the Chinese attack into N. Korea. He promised Mao fighter support from the USSR and backed down at the last minute. Supposedly Mao had a nervous breakdown.
Stalin actaully stabbed the evil Red Chinese in the back in several other ways, too.

the communist North Korea asked the 'evil Red Chinese' commies for aid in repelling western aggression (never mind they started the war), like the South Koreans did of the US. That was the 'evil Red' version of things at the time.
True... but the fact remains that if a nation attacks and kills Americans, esp. in an undeclared sneak attack like the Evil Red Chinese did, the C-in-C should pull all the stops and uleash the full and entire weight of the US Military upon such evil aggression and murder. Had Chairman Mao been C-in-C, most of his actions would scarcely have been distihguishable from those of Truman's. It was the Chinese, not the US, that decided to pick a war. The US had no intention of fighting in the Far East, and indeed did not even have the proper forces in place for a defense. A "defense" based on airpower and the Bomb does no good if you will not use it to defend the lives of your nation's soldiers.





About the more recent scandal involving Clinton, Starlifter, where is your source about China getting missle guidence tech? I don't disbelieve you, but I thought they stole that along with our MIRV secrets in the spy scandal. I would like to see that very much.
It was actaully reported in multiple mainstream sources, including Leherer, Frontline, and another PBS documentary, plus various news sources (including Time and/or Newsweek).

Lest I mislead you, Clinton and Gore did not actually send US Military missiles to China... nor did they release ICBM plans. What they did was to allow the export of "peaceful" missile technology, particularly in terms of computers, software, guidance, etc. Clinton/Gore's story now is that it was just for satellites. The US Justice Department was still investigating Gore several months ago, last I heard. I have seen nothing in the news lately, however.

The money trail into the Clinton/Gore '96 campaign led to the red Army sources reported in the media. I'm noat sure where the official investigation is about that right now.

1. Quickly on the Kennedy thing.
Kennedy, like yellow stain Truman and the draft dodger Clinton, had little to no respect for the US Monroe Doctrine. The Cuban Commie pigs should have been snuffed out from the getgo. Kennedy should have simply called off the entire operation if he did not like it. Instead, he let the Cubans go in believing he would keep the promise of American help. Kennedy pissed in his pants and let the Cubans die, betrayed. Naturally, the Soviets saw JFK as the disgusting spineless traitor that he was.... and attempted to exploit the situation. Make no mistake.... Kennedy caused the Cuban Missile Crisis... that should never have occurred. Kennedy was fortunate to visit Dallas in November of 1963, but he had holes in his head long before then. He was fortuante in the sense that history in the short term treated him kindly because of his assassination.

2. With the casaulty figures, the US really did not know what the casaulties were going to be.
LOL, read the documents of the era. Some of your remarks are similar to what I used to think, based on the massaged view of history generally taught. There were lots of coverups at the end of the war. Recent declassifications and discovered documents, particularly the documents missing from some of Truman's records for decades, show the truth. It is disgusting at times.

I don't think expanding the war into China (which would have gotten the Soviets even more involved) would have been a good idea. Truman had a choice of high probability of war with China and Soviet Union (and renewed warfare in Europe), or the limited fighting in Korea.
You don't have a clue about war, or you'd realize how silly your statement is. Of course an expanded war is bad. ANY war is bad. That is the whole POINT of war.... it is horrific, terrible, and something to be avoided. But when it comes, it is time to knuckle down and get the job done with determination and overwhelming force. It is not time to urinate on oneself and metaphorically suck the d*ck of the jerk who is pissing on you. And Truman was a d*ck sucker extraordinare. When the first American soldier was attacked by the evil Red Chinese, the US should have declared war on the evil Red Chinese and kicked their asses back into Mongolia or Kamchatka if necessary. Red Hordes = Red Carbon.

America sold out with the Truman solution, and to this day, we pay the price around the world. Ironically, the average Chinese pays the price too...

So who the hell cares what the Soviet menace thinks? If Truman listened to Patton in 1945, the Red Menace would have been the Red Grimace. We developed the Bomb for use in Europe... the place it should have been deployed was in far eastern Europe.... the Soviets should have been put back in their cage, and if they didn't like it, their cage should have been incinerated. One must not tolerate evil and appease monsters like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. Such people and governments must be stomped and wiped out with extreme prejudice when you have the upper hand. And in 1945 we had the upper hand.

Keep in mind the most destructive 6 year (4 for US) conflict had just been concluded.
No, you are wrong... the war never ended, thanks to the betrayal of the Soviet "allies". America just quit fighting, thanks to a weak, treacherous President Truman. Truman was obscessed with Stalin... and Stalin, as we now know, accuratly assessed Truman as weak minded and weak-willed individual ready to betray his own nation given the chance.

Truman helped form NATO and the containment policy,
You don't "contain" evil. You stomp it out. Hunt it down and kill it. What a stupid idea to allow evil to survive, when the world fought a war to rid itself of dictatorships, murderers, and evil empires. A coward like Truman comes along and ensures the survival, nay the flourishing, of empires even more monsterous than the 3rd Reich and Rising Sun.

Some people will not fight even to save their family and countrymen. Fine. But get out of the way, and don't betray the nation. Others will eventually pay the price, one way or the other.

 
This is indeed an interesting discussion. There is much I'd like to reply to in Starlifter's post's but it is difficult to know where to start!:crazyeyes

So I will begin with a general reply. One theme seems to be that communism = evil. (Please correct me if this is not what you are saying Starlifter.) I'm guessing that this is because the Communist Manifesto ends:

"The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be atained only by forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communist reolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. The have a world to win.
WORKING MEN OF ALL COUNTRIES UNITE!"

So, if you are communist you want to forcibly conquer the world and therefore you are evil.

I noticed another line in the manifesto:

"... the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."

I think this is what really scares us Capitalits and makes us think, "You want to take our stuff and so you are evil."

Growing up I never did beleive the Russian people wanted to conquer us. I do not now think that the Chinese people want to conquer us. In both these sentences I am refering to the 'regular' people - not what Starlifter would call the 'evil Red' Chinese or Russians. I've also always had faith that the 'regulars' sufficiently outnumber the 'evils' so that common sense and peace will prevail.

This may be a utopian illusion of mine but it does appear that we (the U.S. and many other countries) are smartening up. We did see the danger posed by Sadam back in the 1990s and we responded. If something similar would have occured in the 1930s perhaps even the Korean war might have been avoided...

These 'what ifs' may seem pointless and futile but they can start one thinking about what changes are needed in this world. I think Starlifter and I both see the same dog-eat-dog world out there but our perspectives seem quite different. Starlifter seems to be very nationalistic in his views while I am more global. That is ironic because 9except for Canada) I've not been outside the U.S. while he has alot of time outside the U.S.

Maybe later I will reply to some of the specifics...
 
Oh boy oh boy oh boy. :crazyeyes

I'm not the master of quotes, so I'll summarize your points.

1. I agree, he partially deserves blame for the Bay of Pigs. But Eisenhower and the CIA were the one's who invented that half-baked scheme.
As for the actual Crisis, this was one of a series of steps when Kruschev was trying to test Kennedy. (because he thought he was weak.) He tried some tricks in Berlin, but the US encountered. (Go check out Checkpoint Charlie).
I think Kennedy did a good job once the crisis started. He kept control over our responses, and did not cave into MeLay who wanted to bomb and invade. That would have caused WWIII. The Soviets would have to defend the state they were backing. Also, control of tactical nuclear weapons were under the command of local Cuban troops.
Was Kennedy a wonderful President. No. But I don't consider a slimeless weakling. I think Harding, Coolidge, and Carter were far more horrible Presidents.

2. I did read the documents of the era. Truman had a meeting with Marshall and others. And yes, they did not come up with
1 million casaulties, but the figures did vary widely, as the US had no accurate way to estimate the casaulties. However, looking at Japanese army deployments, the US severely underestimated Japanese strength in Kyushu. (As I eluded to in earlier post). Had an invasion occured, there is a little doubt the casaulty figure's would have been far greater than the US estimates. Also, these casaulties would have involved US deaths, not just Japanese.

The main point of contention in this argument is whether Japan was willing to unconditionally surrender or not. Intercepted japanese diplomatic messages and internal government and army notes show a fight to a finish. While Japan was willing for some form of peace, they wanted a Versailles, not an occupation. It was far more than just the Emperor's place.

3. The US should have continued WWII in order to elimate the evil commie threat. ;)
This is a question of mission. I think it would have been to costly for the US to even attempt to destroy the Soviet Union.
Now, I'm not a big fan of the Soviet Union, but I see nothing short of nuclear war that would have given us victory in 1945. They had superior tanks (in massive amounts, unlike the Germans) and a well developed Industry that would have been difficult to reach with airstrikes. While the Red Air Force was good, we would most likely have achieved Air Superiority, but that won't win the war for you. And I don't think just nuking the Soviet Union would have created a better world. Think of precedent, and the damage to Eastern Europe and Half of Asia. Also, we didn't have enough nukes yet.
Also, the US populace would not have been very supportive of this war, not to mention the fact the power to declare war lies with CONGRESS, not the President.

As for Korea, the situation for WWIII would have been even more unfavorible. By then, the USSR had nukes. (and maybe the H-bomb, but I am not sure on that).
I don't think we sucked the Chinese genitalia. We killed a lot more of them then they did of us, (including a 12:1 airplane ratio) and we secured South Korea.
But in uniting Korea, the US had a choice.
1. WWIII to unite Korea (and bombing inside of China, especially nukes as MacArthur wanted would have done this).
2. Settle for South Korea, containment, and deterrence. (Which eventually worked, as containing the Soviet Union eventually led to their downfall, without requiring a WWIII.)

Now this was far more important than actually studying for my government mid-term tommorrow.
:goodjob:
 
"We killed a lot more of them then they did of us, (including a 12:1 airplane ratio) and we secured South Korea."

The Chinese lost 200-300k men and had a lot more wounded; mostly to the cold cos the troops were not equipped for winter. The Chinese forces were still really poorly-equipped peasant armies but indoctrinated to fight fanatically by the Commies. For them, it's a matter of fighting for and protecting China rather than fighting for Communism.
BTW, the Chinese Communist armies also composed of large nos of ex-Nationalist troops. One reason why the Commies won the Chinese civil war was cos large nos of Nationalist troops defected. The Commies were campaigning on a platform of non-corruption and nationalism.
 
Starlifter said:
The American military should have been allowed to dispose of the Red Threat in Korea after the dastardly sneak attack by the evil Red Chinese. Truman should have been removed from office, tried for cowardice in the face of the enemy, and handed the appropriate punishment for treason and betrayal of the nation in wartime.

In reply:
I assume disposing of the Red Threat in Korea = one Korea with a capitalistic economy and democratic society = winning the Korean War by defeating the North Koreans and keeping the Chinese and Soviets out of Korea. I think it is fair to say that the Chinese would not have stood by and let that happen. We might not be able to say whether WWIII would have broken out but Korea was the Cold War beginning to heat up. A touchy situation given the fact that the Soviets had nuclear bomb capability in the summer of 1949.

As for the sneak attack, I don't know enough about the history. This is what I have learned since reading these posts. (Someone please correct me if I am misinformed.) The US and Soviet Union decided on the 38th parrallel as a demarcation line for the occupation of Korea right after WWII. The political instability in Korea (who rules Korea now that the Japanese are gone?) made Korea a prime 'battlefield' of the US-Soviet Cold War. The Soviets backed a communist trying to unite korea while the Americans backed a non-communist. Since the Koreans now had Soviet or US weapons they started fighting. The US had occupation forces in South Korea and so became involved. (The choice seems to have been get involved or leave.) Now I need help and more studying. From this point it seems the Soviets disappear from the picture and the Chinese step in. Can someone tell me the story of the sneak attack?

As for Truman being removed from office and punished for treason during wartime... I see a couple problems with this. First, was war ever declared? That's just a technicality for sure but someone has recently remined us in these posts that it is Congress not the President that has the power to declare war. (Though in reality the President has the power to get us into wars which they've realized since at least Jefferson's time.) More importantly, what was the actual treason? Truman carrying out his policy of containment rather than MacArthur's policy of attacking China? MacArthur had the right to his own opinion like any other American but he was not in charge! Truman was his commander. Congress could have declared war despite Truman's policy. If they had done so and Truman refused to conduct the war accordingly then there might have been a case for treason since Congress can be considered Truman's boss when it comes to declaring war. Congress did not declare war (becasue they didn't want it?). There did not seem to be a surge of public opinion in the US for Congress to do so either so I certainly do not see even a remote case for treason against Truman.
 
"Now I need help and more studying. From this point it seems the Soviets disappear from the picture and the Chinese step in. Can someone tell me the story of the sneak attack?"

From what I know (what I think I know), after WW2, the Soviets became caretakers of North Korea and the US South Korea. Cos the Soviets had declared war on Japan late in the Pacific War and had blitz the Japs out of Inner Mongolia and Manchuria so they wanted a piece of the action. Original plan was to hand over a united Korea to a united Korean govt.
Then the Cold War started hottening up. The Soviets gave N Korea to Kim, who had led the Korean anti-Jap partisans during WW2 and was affliated with the Red Chinese. Also left behind heavy eq i.e. tanks, artillery etc. On the other hand, the US gave S Korea to some Korean politician (forgotten name) who turned dictatorial and autocratic. But they only left behind light arms so the S Koreans only had some infantry divs in their army.
Sensing an opportunity, Kim invaded the south. No idea if the Chinese or Soviets were awared or pre-warned. He was successful and pushed the S Koreans into the Pusan perimeter. The Americans were alarmed and immediately rushed troops fr Japan and began organising an intl coalition sanctioned by the UN.
Now cos the Soviets were boycotting the UN Sec Council (cos the UN was refusing to recognize the PRC due to American influence), the Americans managed to get their motion passed and a UN force was sent to Korea to beat back the N Koreans (mostly US forces). The US-led force beat the N Koreans and pushed all the way to the Yalu river which was the Chinese border. And the Red Chinese became alarmed cos America had supported (and armed) their Nationalist enemies who had just been driven to Taiwan 2-3 years earlier. Now a US force was poised on its border.
So the Chinese sent out diplomatic feelers to US, asking its intention (US gonna attk into Manchuria?). But US side didn't respond cos no direct diplomatic links betw PRC and USA. Also the US govt and military didn't take the Red Chinese side into consideration and very certainly thought the Chinese won't and couldn't do anything (peasant army!).
So the Chinese secretly sent in hundreds of thousands of 'volunteers' to help the N Koreans drive the US forces back from the border. This was the 'sneak attk' Starlifter was talking about. They attked (together with what was left of the N Korean army) and drove the Americans back beyond the 38'. But the Americans fought back (after recovering fr the shock of China's entry into the war). I think the Red Chinese didn't declare war cos they kept maintaining the fiction that the Chinese troops in Korea were 'volunteers' and not officially-sanctioned.
Eventually the border settled back on the 38' and hence it had remained to this day. BTW, there wasn't a peace settlement so legally the Korean War is still going on. And I think the Soviets did send some MiGs to help the Chinese side but only a few cos Stalin was wary of the Red Chinese. The feelings were mutual cos the Soviets didn't really help the Red Chinese much prior to the founding of the PRC. In fact, the Soviets had a cosier relationship the Nationalist Chinese.
 
Thank you SKM. The account you give seems to make sense. It certainly explains things. The Chinese intervention makes sense. I would not say it was justified but I would not call it a sneak attack either. The big question is what can be learned from the experience? To me that is one of the main reasons for learning about history.

It seems to me that some diplomacy might have avoided all this. Not having direct diplomatic channels seems to have fostered mutual distrust between China and the US. We know there was already fear of Communism in the US and of course this added to the problems. It is sad that the Koreans were caught in the middle of all this. The casualty figures I saw from one source were Korea 3,000,000; China 900,000 and US 35,000. I assume the Korean figure includes many civilians. The figure for China is high but no doubt there were many more Chinese left to fight illustrating the size of the task involved in a US - China war. Keeping Vietnam in mind I do not see how anyone could think the US could roll into China and win. How could we have won against hundreds of millions of people fighting a guerilla war? We would have had to use nukes like crazy and what would the world be like now if that had been done?:eek:

So now we have another undeclared war against a country we have not recognized...

I find it sad that Presidents like Truman and Kennedy who refused to take us into a possible third world war are not recognized for the good that they did. Even President Carter has been ridiculed. I think one of his greatest acheivements was to get Egypt and Isreal talking to each other. It is too bad Carter was followed by Reagan and his talk of the evil empire.
 
"So now we have another undeclared war against a country we have not recognized... "

Actually the USA under Nixon recognized the PRC back in the 70s after the ties betw the Soviets and the Chinese had ruptured. This was to form an entente against the Soviet Union (enemy of my enemy is my friend thing).

Also China has not stationed troops in N Korea for sometime like a few decades, so it's not really involved in the short-term military situation in Korea. I think the Chinese still have some little influence with N Korea but nothing as substantial as the S Korean-USA alliance.

I believe America learnt the Korean War lesson well. During the Vietnam War, the US ground forces never really staged a massive invasion into N Vietnam I think. Cos it would seem like a repeat of the Korean War if US forces once again approached the Chinese broder. Also like in the present war on terrorism, America took great pains to negotiate a deal with the Taliban to hand over Osama before launching the attacks.
 
When I said now we have another undeclared war against against a country we haven't recognized I was thinking about Afganistan and the Taliban. I was under the impression that only Pakistan and Saudi Arabia officially recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afganistan.

SKM's point about no massive invasion of ground troops into North Vietnam because we learned a lesson from Korea makes sense. Maybe there is hope for us after all...
 
Originally posted by donsig
When I said now we have another undeclared war against against a country we haven't recognized I was thinking about Afganistan and the Taliban. I was under the impression that only Pakistan and Saudi Arabia officially recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afganistan.

SKM's point about no massive invasion of ground troops into North Vietnam because we learned a lesson from Korea makes sense. Maybe there is hope for us after all...
Only 3 nations recognized the Taliban as the govt of Afghanistan prior to 911 - Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and one of the Gulf states (UAE?). This no dropped to zero now.
I wonder where's starlifter. I am sure he'll have lots of lectures for us now about the "evil Red Chinese".
 
I wonder where's starlifter. I am sure he'll have lots of lectures for us now about the "evil Red Chinese".

The silence from Starlifter is deafening. I think he mentioned not long ago in one of the GOTM threads something about being the possibility of being 'deployed'. I really hope that hasn't happened with Civ III coming out in less than two weeks. :eek:

We should check and see if he's posted to any other threads lately...
 
Top Bottom