The Historical Basis for Catalonian Independence
- Thread starter JohannaK
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Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Nope - Poland should take over Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania and Latvia again and vassalize Moldavia. We might leave Estonia for Sweden.
Turkey, on the other hand, should get not just the Balkans but also Greece, Cyprus, Hungary, Austria, Romania, Tunisia, Egypt, Libia and Algeria. Austria should be annexed by Turkey (Vienna included this time), but Heinz Fischer should establish a royal dynasty and take over Holland, Belgium and Spain.
Exactly. And Polish nobility (me included) shall rule again over Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine and Livonia.
By the way - Spain and Portugal should be united under the rules of Fischer Dynasty, like in the old good days under Habsburgs.
Also - give France back its colonies in North America, Louisiana included of course. Mexico and Texas go to Spain again.
TheLastOne36
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The commonwealth shall rise again!
Lohrenswald
世界的 bottom ranked physicist
Domen, If we are going to be reactionary and turn the clock back, let's just live as tribesmen in Africa.
Having a North African state rule over Western Russia just doesn't make sense.
Phrossack
Armored Fish and Armored Men
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I prefer the Grand Duchy.
TheLastOne36
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Grand Duchy was a Slavic state so why not?
Would be nice to put those Samogitians in their place and re-doctrinate Belorussians of their rich and mighty history. I propose we call the inhabitants of the Grand Duchy Litvins as well, just like in the days of old.
Would be nice to put those Samogitians in their place and re-doctrinate Belorussians of their rich and mighty history. I propose we call the inhabitants of the Grand Duchy Litvins as well, just like in the days of old.
Phrossack
Armored Fish and Armored Men
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Oh, that's right. Slavs consider Balts Slavs. Nobody else does. Let's not discuss this.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Balts were just 15% of population of the Grand Duchy.
Lohrenswald
世界的 bottom ranked physicist
Not only should you gather these people in a state against their will, you're also going to put in a monarch?
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
Got to love the derailing of a derailing thread. But go on, this is interesting nevertheless.
Lohrenswald
世界的 bottom ranked physicist
The nature of conversation is to change topics every now and then. The whole "stay on topic"-thing sort of goes against "nature".
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
Indeed. But threads are supposed to be about a single topic, I'm afraid, and the Grand Duchy isn't this one's 
Phrossack
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Oh, okay. This sounds right, since Lithuanians conquered, married into, or otherwise acquired vast tracts of Rus' land. I was worried that you'd insist that Balts are not Balts but Slavs-- I seem to recall an argument here between Lone Wolf and TLO about Eastern Europe in which both sides agreed to something to that effect.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Marriages into royal families of Rus' principalities was one of ways of acquiring land for the Grand Duchy.
No I'm not insisting on anything like this. However, it is very likely that Balts are closely related to Slavs.
Balts and Slavs most likely emerged from the same group of Indo-European tribes during their respective ethnogeneses.
There is of course a number of disputes about this. Some scientists say that Baltic ethnogenesis was earlier than Slavonic (which of course in itself does not disprove or contradict the theory that they emerged from the same group of Proto-Slavonic-Baltic tribes).
When it comes to written sources, Slavic tribes appeared in Greco-Roman written sources earlier than Baltic tribes.
But dates when various tribes were for the first time mentioned, don't tell us about the time when they emerged. For example the Latin names "Germania" and "Germani" were for the first time used ca. 100 years after the Cimbrian War of 113 - 101 BC, when the Romans first met with Germanic tribes.
The Latin names "Germania" and "Germani" were used for the first time on the turn of the 1st century BC and the 1st century AD.
No I'm not insisting on anything like this. However, it is very likely that Balts are closely related to Slavs.
Balts and Slavs most likely emerged from the same group of Indo-European tribes during their respective ethnogeneses.
There is of course a number of disputes about this. Some scientists say that Baltic ethnogenesis was earlier than Slavonic (which of course in itself does not disprove or contradict the theory that they emerged from the same group of Proto-Slavonic-Baltic tribes).
When it comes to written sources, Slavic tribes appeared in Greco-Roman written sources earlier than Baltic tribes.
But dates when various tribes were for the first time mentioned, don't tell us about the time when they emerged. For example the Latin names "Germania" and "Germani" were for the first time used ca. 100 years after the Cimbrian War of 113 - 101 BC, when the Romans first met with Germanic tribes.
The Latin names "Germania" and "Germani" were used for the first time on the turn of the 1st century BC and the 1st century AD.
TheLastOne36
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Against their will?
Well Samogitia can keep Panevezys, Klaipeda and maybe even Kaunas even though Kaunas was a historically Slavic city. I think Vilno should be reclaimed by Slavs though.
Anyway, this newly formed modern Grand Duchy Lithuania is going to have some name contentions with the current Lithuania, one that could dwarf the current FYROM/Macedonia nonsense.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Actually my opinion is that both Macedonia and Lithuania are fully entitled to keep their names as they are.
Just like it is not right to call Macedonia FYROM, it would also be not right to call Lithuania FSROL (Former Soviet Republic of Lithuania), because everyone is entitled to call themselves as they want - and the peoople of Macedonia want to be called Macedonia, not FYROM. Etc.
In another thread on this forum I even defended Macedonia against attacks by Greek nationalists and their Western supporters.
But you are right that modern Lithuania has about as much to do with the Grand Duchy of Litva, as modern Macedonia with Ancient Macedonia.
Just like it is not right to call Macedonia FYROM, it would also be not right to call Lithuania FSROL (Former Soviet Republic of Lithuania), because everyone is entitled to call themselves as they want - and the peoople of Macedonia want to be called Macedonia, not FYROM. Etc.
In another thread on this forum I even defended Macedonia against attacks by Greek nationalists and their Western supporters.
But you are right that modern Lithuania has about as much to do with the Grand Duchy of Litva, as modern Macedonia with Ancient Macedonia.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Lord Baal - the thing about you which bothers me the most is how a communist supporter can support imperialism and state terror at the same time? Looks like you are not a "good", ideological communist, but one of those guys who are guilty of distorting the original idea. Praising Tito for keeping the state of Yugoslavia alive with use of terror and violence, against the will of majority of its inhabitants, has nothing to do with the original idea of communism. You also said that Russia and Germany should annex all the states in between, against the will of people who live there and want to decide for themselves, in their own "communes".
Guys who praise Joseph Stalin for what he did or who have Stalin in their avatars and call themselves communists, are not real communists.
Guys who praise Joseph Stalin for what he did or who have Stalin in their avatars and call themselves communists, are not real communists.
Lohrenswald
世界的 bottom ranked physicist
Against their will?
Well Samogitia can keep Panevezys, Klaipeda and maybe even Kaunas even though Kaunas was a historically Slavic city. I think Vilno should be reclaimed by Slavs though.
Anyway, this newly formed modern Grand Duchy Lithuania is going to have some name contentions with the current Lithuania, one that could dwarf the current FYROM/Macedonia nonsense.
The Commonwealth-thing is a grandeur illusion of (some) poles, and nothing the lithuanians, whiterussians, ukrainians (let's discuss their "legitimacy" as a people) and so forth want.
The grand-duchy-thing is even more stupid.
TheLastOne36
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Relax, we are being facetious here.
Though there are a small group of people in Belarus highly opposed to Lukashenko, who wish for closer relations with the west, and want Belarus to reclaim the Pahonia and other Grand Duchy Lithuanian symbols and history as their own.
